Aṣṭottara-Śata Blog: Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence

Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence

[This article has been written to justify the stance taken by certain Gauḍīya-vaiṣṇava ācāryas that Bhakti and prema are intrinsic in the heart of the jīva. This article does so while maintaining complete respect to the other opinion that Bhakti is bestowed by a nitya-siddha devotee. The purpose of this article is not to spite any particular individual, institution or philosophical position. This is a somewhat lengthy article mainly for those who are interested in this particular topic.]

A popular adage says that — "If two people have the exact same opinion on all topics in the world, then one of the two is irrelevant". Needless to say, differences of opinion may arise even between two ācāryas of the same disciplic succession.

Problems especially arise when those of us who are marred by limited sense perception try to gaze into the domain of the unlimited spiritual world. Thus, answers to simple questions such as — "Is bhakti an intrinsic part of the existence of the jīva?" are almost impossible to give without getting into a convoluted discussion about jīva-tattva.

The Pandora's box opens up with two popular verses — one from the Caitanya-caritāmṛtam and the other from the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ:

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema ’sādhya’ kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

BBT Translation: Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of the living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source. When the heart is purified by hearing and chanting, this love naturally awakens. (CC, Madhya, 22.107)

nitya-siddhasya bhāvasya

prākaṭyaṁ hṛdi sādhyatā

BBT Translation: Such devotion eternally exists within the heart of every living entity. The awakening of this eternal devotion is the potentiality of devotional service in practice. (Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ, quoted in CC Madhya 22.105)

The issue here is that some previous authorities will not exactly translate the verse in this fashion. They do not agree that prema is an intrinsic part of the eternal existence of the conditioned jīva, or that it somehow "naturally awakens". According to them, the conditioned jīva has no eternally existing prema and can only get it when it is bestowed by an existing nitya-siddha devotee who is eternally in possession of such prema.

On the other hand, other authorities say that prema is intrinsic to the existence of the jīva. It merely has to be "discovered" and is not begotten from an external source. These two viewpoints are certainly contradictory, and a resolution is definitely needed.

If we study the entire matter carefully, we will realize that the ācāryas who wrote that prema is "intrinsic" to the jīva as well as the ācāryas who wrote that it is "bestowed" upon the jīva are both correct in their own ways. None of these ācāryas were making a siddhāntic adjustment when they made their respective statements. Let's explore how this is so.

The sandarbhas specify that there are many intrinsic qualities of the nitya-siddha jīva. These intrinsic qualities are merely covered up in the nitya-baddha jīva. This is specified in verses of Viṣṇu-dharma quoted in Prīti-sandarbha (5):

ādarśasya malābhāvād

vaimalyaṁ kāśate yathā

jñānāgni-dagdha-heyasya

sa hlādo hy ātmanas tathā

yathā heya-guṇa-dhvaṁsād

avabodhādayo guṇāḥ

prakāśante na janyante

nityā evātmano hi te

jñānaṁ vairāgyam aiśvaryaṁ

dharmaś ca manujeśvara

ātmano brahma-bhūtasya

nityam eva catuṣṭayam

Translation: O King! Just as pristine clarity is seen in a mirror in the absence of dirt, similarly when rejectable material influences are burnt to ashes by the fire of transcendental knowledge, the innate happiness of the soul becomes naturally manifest.

In a similar manner, by the destruction of rejectable material influences, qualities such as avabodha (complete awareness of the self) are merely *discovered*. Such qualities are never *produced* , for they are an intrinsic part of the living entity's eternal existence.

Thus — jñāna (eternal knowledge of the self etc.), vairāgya (detachment from matter), aiśvarya (transcendental opulences) and dharma (all sorts of religiosity) are four eternal qualities of the *liberated* soul. — (Viṣṇu-dharma, Quoted in Prīti-sandarbha, 5)

Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī himself elaborates further as follows — tad-vaimukhyenānādinā labdhac-chidrayeśa-māyayā tad-anubhava-lopādeḥ sambhavāt kathañcit sāmmukhyena tad-anugrahān nivṛttiś cāsti

Translation: "Due to beginningless disinclination towards Bhagavān, Māyā detects the fault of the jīva and causes the lopa (disappearance) of the experience of the self and Bhagavān. Somehow by becoming inclined to Bhagavān and by attaining his mercy, that same Māyā is removed". (Prīti-sandarbha, 5)

It is very clear from this paragraph by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī that Māyā is able to cover up certain intrinsic qualities of the baddha-jīva, and these qualities are merely *uncovered* when such Māyā is removed by the mercy of Bhagavān.

However, previously in the Paramātma-sandarbha (47), Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī had said for the baddha-jīva that — tadīya-jñāna-abhāvāt — "Such a nitya-baddha soul has lack of knowledge of Bhagavān". Some interpret the term "jñāna-abhāva" (lack of knowledge) as prāg-abhāva (negation prior to appearance).

However, the Prīti-sandarbha quote above has clearly mentioned that it is "lopa" (disappearance) of that jñāna which is nitya-guṇa (intrinsic quality) of the jīva. Clearly, the terms abhāva (lack) and lopa (disappearance) do not tally with each other. Neither does anyone have the eyes to look into the window of anādi-kāla and determine if it was abhāva (lack) or lopa (disappearance) of intrinsic jñāna of the jīva which caused its bondage in this world.

In the same Prīti-sandarbha, it is specified that although the jīva is in a conditioned state right now, but there is a potential eternal spiritual body waiting since time immemorial to be assigned to the jīva in the spiritual world. This is specified in the Prīti-sandarbha as follows — anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante, tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtiḥ bhagavatā kriyate — "Unlimited [eternal] bodily forms exist in Vaikuṇṭha. Out of those unlimited eternal forms, the liberated soul is assigned one form by Bhagavān". — (Prīti-sandarbha, 10)

These potential bodies in the spiritual world are all eternal, because the Bhagavat-sandarbha firmly establishes the siddhānta that in the spiritual world none of the spiritual bodies are ever "created" at a certain point of time. They are all eternally existing. Creation of new bodies does not take place in the spiritual world. This means that the potential eternal spiritual bodies of all the conditioned jīvas are already waiting in the spiritual world. These spiritual bodies are replete with all spiritual guṇas (qualities), and are merely waiting to be assigned to the jīva by the mercy of Bhagavān as and when these jīvas become fully accepted by Bhagavān.

Thus, when some ācāryas say that prema is eternally dormant in the heart of the jīva, the meaning is that it is dormant in the hearts of *THESE ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODIES*. Each spiritual body in the spiritual world has all sense organs, including a heart. Prema is intrinsically and eternally present in that very heart that the jīva possesses in the spiritual world. The ācāryas never say that prema is dormant in the conditioned heart of the material body of the jīva. The eternally existing spiritual body is thus the upādāna-kāraṇa (substantial cause) and the mercy of Bhagavān or the nitya-siddha is the nimitta-kāraṇa (instrumental cause) of the manifestation of prema. In this way, the apparent contradictory opinions are harmonized, and such harmonization should be sought by all sāragrāhī vaiṣṇavas.

If prema were to be "introduced" to the jīva at a certain point of time by an external agency, then such prema will also have to be introduced in the heart of the eternal spiritual body that the jīva is going to get post liberation. That event itself will change the constitution of the eternal spiritual body, and a body which has undergone a fundamental constitutional change will cease to fall in the category of "eternal". Vipariṇāma (transformation) is a function of the material world, not the spiritual world.

Thus, when it is said that prema is "bestowed" by a nitya-siddha devotee, it only means that the nitya-siddha devotee bestows a realization of that specific flavor and those specific details of the prema that is already dormant in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body that is waiting to be assigned to the jīva post liberation. It doesn't mean that the nitya-siddha literally pours half a gallon of prema in the heart of the conditioned jīva.

The nitya-siddha cannot bestow prema in the conditioned heart of the material body, since the conditioned heart is a product of māyā and is thus an unfit container for receiving prema. Neither can the nitya-siddha generate such prema in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body, because such a body is already eternally perfect and is simply waiting in a dormant state in the spiritual world. Therefore, the "bestowing" of prema by a nitya-siddha devotee is nothing but revelation of the eternal perfected identity (siddha deha) that exists already in the spiritual world.

Some gurus bestow this perfected identity at the time of dīkṣā and this is known as siddha-praṇālī. Some other gurus do not bestow it at the time of dīkṣā and expect the sādhaka to achieve the direct mercy of Bhagavān in order to get the revelation of their siddha-deha. Both processes work equally well. The sages at Daṇḍakāraṇya who met Lord Rāma wanted to be situated in conjugal rasa with the Lord, but did not have any siddha-praṇālī bestowed upon them. They attained their svarūpa simply by the mercy of the Lord. Thus, siddha-praṇālī is not a compulsion upon every guru and sādhaka. There are also other practical issues with the siddha-praṇālī system, which are beyond the scope of the article.

In this way, the two differing opinions of previous ācāryas are harmonized. A devotee faithful to his guru-janas should not think that his gurus merely gave some temporary siddhānta in this regard according to time, place and circumstance. If it is possible to reconcile and justify the views of one's guru-janas from śāstra, then the disciple should definitely take that route.

---

rucaṁ no dhehi brāhmaṇeṣu

rucaṁ rājasu nas kṛdhi |

rucaṁ viśyeṣu śūdreṣu

mayi dhehi rucā rucam || (Śukla-yajurveda 18.48)

|| oṁ tat sat ||

"It is a mistake to call a reference for sālokya-mukti as a reference for sārūpya-mukti. The reference for sālokya-mukti has been used only because it clearly pronounces the fact that all bodies of Bhagavān's associates are eternal in nature.

With absolute confidence the sandarbhas say that all pārṣada dehas are eternal and never created at any point of time. Even in the case of sārūpya-mukti, Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī says in Prīti-sandarbha (14) — tad evaṁ sārūpyam api jñeyam — "This fact should be known even about sārūpya-mukti".

Then he quotes Śrīmad-bhāgavatam (8.4.6) — prāpto bhagavato rūpaṁ pīta-vāsāś catur-bhujaḥ — "Gajendra attained a four-handed form of the Lord decorated with Pītāmbara cloth". Here too, the form of the Lord that he attained was never created newly. All the forms exist eternally in the spiritual world.

Using terms such as "inherency-vādīs" to pejoratively trivialize the stance taken by various devotees does not suit the nature of a discussion of a vāda type. This entire article has not been written in a spirit of jalpa or vitaṇḍā (although I could have very well done so). Let me give a sample of such a tone of argument — Many of the "inherited-vādīs" are also the same ones who say that the mercy of the "nitya-siddha" is attained only in specific parivāras that have only brāhmaṇa-by-birth gurus.

This is not the tone I would like to take in this specific article, because I have clearly mentioned in the very beginning that my aim is not to spite those who take sides with the position that bhakti is inherited from a nitya-siddha. They are also ācāryas from our own sampradāya, and hurting them is equivalent to hurting ourselves.

Even in the case of taking a bhauma birth first in Vraja, the CC (Adi 1.81) clearly says that the Vraja-bhaktas are kāya-vyūha of Krishna himself, and the CC Adi 4.79 gopīs in mādhurya-bhāva are "kāya-vyūha-rūpas" of Sri Radhika herself. I would really love to see any logic which proves that any of these kāya-vyūha-rūpas were ever "created" or "introduced" in the spiritual world. That would certainly be a new discovery in the sandarbhas."

— Hari Pārṣada Dāsa. 04-June-2022.

Sādhu-saṅga, association with devotees is so important, very important, that it's this association that will determine in which Rasa we will serve in the spiritual world.

Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura explains in his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu-bindu (17) that Sthāyi-bhāva is divided into 3:

1 - Sāmānya-rūpa - The neutral Bhajana of a practitioner who has never attained the association of even a single devotee firmly situated in a certain Rasa can mature in Sāmānya-rati. Such Sthāyi-bhāva is known to be of a generic form.

2 - Svaccha-rūpa - If one has routinely associated with five types of devotees situated in five different types of moods, when his/her Bhajana matures, five types of Rati can manifest themselves in him/her according to the ongoing association at different times, sometimes Śānta, sometimes Dāsya, sometimes Sakhya, sometimes Vātsalya and sometimes Mādhurya. Not being fixed in any one of them is a Rati known as Svaccha-rūpa (of a transparent nature). The practitioner's emotions change depending on his/her association with devotees established in one of these five primary Rasas.

3 - Śāntyādi pañca-vidha-rūpa - The third category of Sthāyi-bhāva exists within the heart of the practitioner who has received the association of a devotee firmly situated in a certain Rasa, and therefore such practitioner is fixed in a specific Rasa and this does not change. Only this third category can awaken Lobha (the initial eagerness to want to follow an associate of Vṛndāvana).

Lobha is the starting point of Rāgānugā-sādhana-bhakti.

In BRS 1.2.292, 1.2.300 and 1.2.309 Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī explains how Lobha awakens.

1 - By reading the scriptures about Vraja (Rasa Śāstra).

2 - For listening to Vraja's sweet pastimes.

3 - By contemplating the sweetness of the Deities of Rādhā Kṛṣṇa and the Gopīs.

4 - By the mercy of Kṛṣṇa and His devotees.

Mukunda Gosvāmī explains that through the first 3 and Kṛṣṇa's mercy it is very rare to awaken Lobha.

In fact, Lobha awakens only when we associate with a Vaiṣṇava who is strongly attracted by the sweet feelings of the Vrajavāsīs and who is following the path of Rāgānugā-bhakti. And talks about it and inspires us in this way.

Without such an association, it is very unlikely that anyone will awaken Lobha and walk the path of Rāgānugā-sādhana-bhakti.

Such worship is a neutral Bhajana.

Practitioners who have never attained the association of even a single devotee firmly situated in a certain Rasa.

Such worship leads to reaching

Sāmānya-rūpa sthāyi-bhāva (a generic worship of God without a specific Rasa).

And it ends there, waiting for Kṛpā-siddhi ... which is very rare.

Association with a Vaiṣṇava who is strongly attracted by the sweet feelings of the Vrajavāsīs and who inspires us in this way is VITAL to move forward through all stages of Bhakti (Sādhana - Bhava - Prema).

Not only Murāri Gupta but also Anupama, the brother of Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami.

Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu taught Kṛṣṇa Bhakti and, in some cases, converted Rāma Bhaktas into Kṛṣṇa Bhaktas.

However, when Rāma Bhaktas like Murāri Gupta and Anupama, who had already established their fixed mood (Sthāyi-bhāva), displayed their attachment to Rāmacandra, Śrī Caitanya was very pleased.

Mahāprabhu said, "Before, I examined Murāri Gupta, and I likewise perceived that he was very devoted to Rāma. Glorious is that devotee who does not give up the shelter of his Lord, and glorious is that Lord who does not abandon His servant" (Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 4.45-46)

This is extremely important. Ah but I like Viṣṇu-līlā, Ah but I like Rāma-līlā, Ah but I like Nṛsiṁha-līlā, Ah but I like all Līlās and I am not attracted to a specific one ....... as long as the devotee does not specify his/her relationship in a particular way, he/she will have to accept a new birth in this material world.

One cannot advance in devotional service without a particular devotion to a specific worshipable Deity, or Iṣṭa-deva.

Gauḍīya Vaiṣṇavas are in the mood (Rasa) of Vṛndāvana or informal love (Mādhurya), inclined towards Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa.

Why?

Because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is Krsna in Radha's conjugal mood. And by the influence of this association, the majority, and because they have not established their Sthayi-bhava, will accept Madhurya Rasa.

It is the association that defines the Rasa that we will serve in the spiritual world.

"Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”

(Srila Bhaktisidhanta Sarasvati Anubhasya CC Adi 7-17)

"Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are very much attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."

(Srila Prabhupada - Teachings of Lord Caitanya 17)

No.

A potential eternal spiritual body waiting since time immemorial to be assigned to the jiva in the spiritual world as per Priti-sandarbha, 10 have the Rasa that the jiva has chosen through association received in this material world during sadhana.

Yes, it is also possible to say this way.

Although it seems that these potential spiritual bodies have no influence under the conditioned jiva.

And that is why it is said that we achieve at the perfect stage what we cultivate during sadhana.

sādhane ye dhana cāi siddha dehe tāhā pāi

pakvāpakva mātra se vicāra |

apakke sādhana rīti pākile se prema bhakti

bhakati lakṣaṇa tattva sāra || 56 ||

"That prize I seek in my cultivation of devotion is what I will get in the spiritual body. It is simply a question of ripe and unripe states of the same thing. When unripe it is called sādhana-bhakti, when ripe it is prema-bhakti. This is all you really need to know about bhakti."

(Prema-bhakti-candrikā - Śrīla Narottama Dāsa Ṭhākura)

Sri Krishna´s most precious gift – our eternal spiritual form (siddha-deha)

MARCH 15, 2014 / TARUN GOVINDA DAS

Recently I had a very nice discussion with some devotees about the wonderful gift that Sri Krishna is willing to give each and every soul who falls in love with him.

It is a very high subject matter and honestly, I am far away from being qualified to write about it.

But I can share what I learnt from my Gurudeva and from other wonderful devotees.

Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita:

mam upetya punar janma

duhkhalayam asasvatam

napnuvanti mahatmanah

samsiddhim paramam gatah

After attaining Me, the great souls never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

Once we attain the highest perfection, we attain the abode of Sri Krishna and He promises that we will never return here.

This is so because the most merciful Lord rewards us with a spiritual body which is eternal and with this spiritual body (siddha-deha), we can be eternally in love with the Divine Couple.

In the Srimat Bhagavatam we find the following verse:

vasanti yatra puruṣāḥ

sarve vaikuṇṭha-mūrtayaḥ

ye ’nimitta-nimittena

dharmeṇārādhayan harim

– (SB 3.15.14)

In the Vaikuṇṭha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification.

As raganuga-devotees in the line of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, we are eager to reach our destination: Goloka Vrindavana.

In the tenth section of the Priti-sandarbha, Jiva Gosvamin writes, commenting on the verse from above:

vaikuṇṭhasya bhagavato jyotir-aṁśa-bhūtā vaikuṇṭha-loka-śobha-rūpā yā anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtir bhagavatā kriyata iti vaikuṇṭasya mūrtir iva mūrtir yeṣām ity uktam

– (Prīti Sandarbha (10)

“In the spiritual world, the Supreme Lord has unlimited spiritual forms, all are expansions of himself illuminating that world. With each one of those forms, the Lord enjoys pastimes with a single individual liberated soul.”

These liberated souls therefore have spiritual bodies like that of the Lord.

In the Lord’s abode, there are an unlimited number of forms, all suitable for rendering service to him. Every one of those forms is non-different from him, being expanded from his effulgence; each one is eternal, full of consciousness and bliss. They are the crowning, central jewels of the spiritual world—its very life. These unlimited spiritual bodies are the perfected forms of the liberated souls which are awarded to an individual, according to his taste, when he reaches the state of absolute liberation. This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an from OUR PERSPECTIVE – inactive state.

As all of the unlimited souls are servants of the Lord, each one of them has a spiritual body in the Lord’s abode just suitable for rendering service to the Lord. When an individual becomes qualified for direct service to the Lord by the grace of the Goddess of Devotion, then the Supreme Lord awards him that spiritual body.

( from Manjari Svarupa Nirupana, Sri Srimat Kunja Bihari das)

My Gurudeva writes about this:

The siddha-deha of the sadhaka is a beautiful treasure of the eternal divine abode and it is permanent. All the siddha-dehas are conscious, blissful and is in the mode of especially pure goodness.

We see in Srimad-Bhagavatam –

“vasanti yatra purushah sarve vaikuntha-murtayah.”

Meaning –

“Innumerable bodies are present in the divine Vaikuntha. They are parts of Sri Bhagavan’s effulgence and are the precious and beautiful treasure of the Holy Abode.”

Sri Gurudeva is Sri Bhagavan’s intense compassion personified. He knows our siddha-deha by the power of his meditation. Then he reveals to us our siddha-deha. We should meditate on this divine body and think “I am this divine body”. Such meditation is called “meditating on siddha-deha”. So we should note that our sadhana does NOT create the siddha-deha. It is already there. When we accomplish success in bhakti and we become worthy of serving Sri Bhagavan in reality, we become blessed and get the opportunity to serve the Divine Couple in our siddha-deha. Hence it is imperative that we follow the Siddha-pranali received in the Guru-parampara and perform sadhana accordingly. We should meditate on that siddha-deha which we receive in Sri Guruparampara and that which Sri Gurudeva has given us.

Lord Sadashiv has instructed us in Sri Sanatkumar-Samhita how to meditate on siddha-swarup –

“parakiyabhimaninyastathasya cha priyajanah,

prachirenaiva bhavaena ramayanti nijapriyam.

atmanam chintayettatra tasam madhye manoramam,

rupa-youvana-sampannam kishorim pramadakritim.

aanashlpakalabhigyam krishnabhoganurupinim,

ararthitam-api krishnena tato bhogaparanmukhim.

aadhikanucharim nitya tatsevanaparayanam,

krishnadapyadhikam prema radhikayam prakurvitam.

prityanudivasam yatnattayoh sangamakarinim,

tatsevanasukhaswadabharenati sunivritam.

ityatmanam vichintyaiva tatra sevam samacharet,

brahmamuhurtamarabhya yavat santa Mahanisha.”

Meaning –

“The Brajasundaris who are in parakiya-bhava, give immense pleasure to their Beloved Sri Krishna according to their bhava. Similarly, you too consider yourself as a Gopa-maiden and serve in subordination to their bhava. You are a maidservant amongst the Gopa-damsels. How will you meditate on this self? You will think – ‘I am an extremely attractive maiden brimming with beauty, youth and sensuousness. I am a Gopa-girl and experienced in many arts regarding Sri Krishna’s seva. I am Srimati Radharani’s eternal companion and follower.’ Your loving seva lies in uniting Srimati Radharani with Sri Krishna and your happiness lies therein. If Sri Krishna ever begs you for love-making, you will refuse, since you are Sri Radha’s maidservant and you feel joy in making her happy. In this manner you will serve Srimati Radharani eternally and love Her more than Sri Krishna. You will serve Her during all eight parts of the day and unite Her with Sri Krishna. Thus you will submerge in the joy of seva. You will serve right from the Brahma-muhurta till the end of the night.”

Those of us who cannot see the siddha-deha clearly, or do lila-smaran conspicuously – rather they even find it laborious – it is better if they are not over-enthusiastic about meditating on siddha-deha and practicing lila-smaran. It is better if they hear from the holy lips of the great devotees about the divine pastimes. Then they should read lots about the glory of Gopi-bhava, repeat them and say lalasamayi prayers that crave for such bhava. They should try to practice very little Gopi-bhava in the form of remembering and thinking. If they perform bhajan like this, then gradually they will be able to meditate nicely on their siddha-deha and they will be qualified to meditate on the pastimes of the Divine Couple. They will also be able to meditate on the loving seva of the Divine Couple in the correct manner.

Now, it is very important to check the verse in question very clearly.

Srila Jiva Goswami writes that Krishna will GIVE a liberated soul who reached perfection a body “similar” to His. Many think that He “creates that form”, but this is not the case.

The siddha-deha is an eternally existing form. It is never created and it is “of pure svarupa-sakti”. Srila Jiva Goswami uses his words very thoughtfully.

He clearly says: KRIYATE. “KRIYATE” can mean many things.

A nice devotee explained the verse beautifully:

Kṛṣṇa Das: “The root kṛ in Sanskrit can actually have any meaning, it does not mean just “create”. It is akin to the English “do”. One can express every activity with it. Kriyate in the passage does not mean that the spiritual body is created. The text itself says that mūrtayas tatra vartante, they are there eternally, tāsām (out of them) ekayā saha (with one) muktasya(of the liberated) ekasya (of the one) mūrtir (body) bhagavatā (by the Lord) kriyate (assign), i.e. the Lord awards one of the bodies that eternally reside in Vaikuṇṭha (in an inactive state) to the liberated one. vaikuṇṭasya mūrtir iva mūrtir yeṣām, the body that one is given is similar (iva) to that of Lord Vaikuṇṭha. Jīva Goswāmī wants to explain that one achieves bhagavat-tulyatvam at the stage of utkrānta-mukti (gone forth or out, gone over or beyond , passed , surpassed, trespassing , exceeding – Monier Williams) by quoting the Bhāgavata verse (3.15.14 vasanti yatra puruṣāḥ) there (utkrānta-mukti-daśāyāṁ tu teṣāṁ bhagavat-tulyatvam evāha). There is nothing like that that the spiritual body is created at some time. It is eternal. It is aprākṛta. The fact itself should make it clear that it can’t be created. “

So we can clearly see that this form is “already” there and Krishna “assigns” such a form to the jiva who reached perefection.

We can find this even in the Vedanta Sutra (that the siddha-deha is GIVEN and not inherent).

A nice devotee named Gaurasundara Dasa did wonderful research about this:

The concept of “assigning” a spiritual form” to a liberated jiva-soul:

What we clearly have to understand here is that these statements are dealing with the highest spiritual energy and with our “final destination”.

We use actually must use words to “describe” a situation which is far beyond our ability to comprehend. But nevertheless, to understand it with our material minds, we must use words and metaphors.

But let us first understand what kind of miracle is happening here.

The jiva-soul, bound in material time since forever, has the chance to break free from this cycle of birth and death. The conditioning is since time immemorial (anadi), but by the mercy of the Lord, it can come to an end. How?

Let us see:

Krishna “possesses” 3 kinds of energies or “saktis”.

His “INNER” energy (cit-sakti) made of

sandhini-sakti (existence)

samvit-sakti (knowledge)

hladini-sakti (bliss)

His “MARGINAL” energy (tatashta-sakti)

His “EXTERNAL” energy (bahiranga-sakti)

All these 3 energies are eternal and separate from each other.

Now, the living entity belongs to the “MARGINAL” energy and is inbetween the “INNER” and “EXTERNAL” energy.

Since the living entity, the spiritual soul, is a “drop of consciousness” (cit-con), it can be conscious of the material nature and identify with it or it can be conscious of the spiritual nature and identify with it.

cit-kana – jiva, krishna – cinmaya bhaskara

nitya krishne dekhi – krishne karena adara

– Prema-vivarta 6.1

The jiva (the spiritual soul) is an infinitesimal particle of spiritual consciousness, like an atomic particle of light emanating from the sun. Sri Krishna is the complete spiritual consciousness, the transcendental sun. When the jivas focus their attention on Krishna, they go to Him.

The jiva is either under dominion of the bahiranga-sakti or of the antaranga-sakti.

But the jiva is “in his own category” as an energy.

Nowhere in shastra we can find that the tatastha-sakti is part from or originates from the Lord´s inner energy or svarupa (antaranga)-sakti.

My good friend Advaita das blogged about this on his blog and he wrote about how Sriman Mahaprabhu taught Sripad Sanatana Goswami about the nature of the jiva:

LINK

(quote)

Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 20.108-109:

jivera ‘svarupa’ haya-krsnera ‘nitya-dasa’

krsnera ‘tatastha-sakti’ ‘bhedabheda-prakasa’

suryamsa-kirana, yaiche agni-jvala-caya

svabhavika krsnera tina-prakara ‘sakti’ haya

“It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna, because he is the marginal energy of Krsna – a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or spark of fire. Krsna has three varieties of energy.”

kṛṣṇera svābhāvika tina-śakti-pariṇati

cic-chakti, jīva-śakti, āra māyā-śakti

– (CC)

“Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency.

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā

kṣetra-jùākhyā tathā parā

avidyā-karma-saṁjùānyā

tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

– CC Ādi 7.119

“ ‘The potency of Lord Viṣṇu is summarized in three categories — namely, the spiritual potency, the living entities and ignorance. The spiritual potency is full of knowledge; the living entities, although belonging to the spiritual potency, are subject to bewilderment; and the third energy, which is full of ignorance, is always visible in fruitive activities.’

It is nowhere staed that the jiva-sakti is a partial manifestation of svarupa-sakti. Wherever there is a discussion of the Lord´s saktis, jiva-sakti and svarupa-sakti are mentioned as eternally separate. One also never becomes the other.

(unquote)

The jiva is here in this world since beginningless time (anadi) and when we start the path of bhakti, we can transform our consciouness into Krishna consciousness.

Bhakti is a combination of the hladini-sakti (BLISS) and the samvit-sakti (KNOWLEDGE). It originates in Krishna´s inner energy, the svarupa-sakti.

Ultimately it finds its origin in Srimati Radhika.

So when the jiva comes into contact with bhakti, it automatically COMES into contact with Krishna´s svarupa-sakti.

Bhakti is NOT already dormant in the heart. Sri Gurudeva plants the seed of bhakti into our heart. Bhakti can only come from someone who has already bhakti in his/her heart.

When we reach the goal of bhakti, Krishna rewards us with one of His unlimited forms.

The jiva is like a rod of iron and bhakti is like a fire. If we hold the iron rod long enough into the fire, the rod will imbue all the qualities of the fire.

Similarly, when we dive deep into the ocean of bhakti, the svarupa-sakti of the Lord will “transport us to our siddha-deha” when we reached our final goal in bhakti, PREMA.

Now, as we have seen earlier, my Paramgurudeva explains in his “Manjari Svarupa Nirupana” this “transportation” of the jiva to its siddha-deha with an example:

This state is called attainment of the spiritual body. All these spiritual bodies are eternal for they exist even before the liberated souls enter them and will continue to exist ever afterward. However, prior to the entry of the liberated soul they are in an inactive state.

This is truly mind-blowing. We are FORCED to ask:

1) How can there be spiritual bodies for us BEFORE we enter?

2) How can they be there AND be INACTIVE?

3) Now we are here, they are there…what are they doing in the meantime?

BUT we have to understand ONE THING: These questions originate in a material conditioned mind. We are forced to THINK and FEEL and EXPERIENCE in a time-space-continuum.

BUT we are talking here about the SPIRITUAL WORLD…the innermost portion of Sri Krishna´s “creation”…the topmost realm of Divine Love…Goloka Vrindavana…

Our questions are BOUND to fail.

One very advanced sadhu told me: “You will understand these things, when you understand them.”

He told me that first of all, the realm and the “doings/arrangements” of Sri Krishna are acintya, inconceivable. His inner potency, Yoga-Maya, can make impossible things possible.

We can ONLY UNDERSTAND these “matters” when our consciousness is fully purified (suddha-sattva).

When our hearts are filled with the Lord´s inner potency (svarupa-sakti => BHAKTI), we can comprehend and realize these things.

How can we even try to understand the siddha-deha? It is a body made of “BHAVA” (spiritual emotions). Even the clothes we wear are symptoms of our bhava…

Right now, we cannot even imagine a body made of fire…what to speak of Lord Brahma´s body which is made of intelligence…

But this does not mean that we can foget it all…we can anyway never understand it. The meditation on the siddha-deha is useless…it is only my head-cinema producing a movie with me in a manjari-form.

No. This is not what the mahajanas teach us. All depends on our practice, on our consciousness and on our stage in bhakti.

Srila Narottam das Thakur sings:

sadhane ye dhana cai, siddha dehe taha pai,

pakkapakka matra se vicara

apakke sadhana riti, pakile se prema-bhakti,

bhakati lakshana tattva sara (56)

“The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body; it’s just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure loving devotion and the unripe stage is the stage of practice. That is the essential truth about devotional principles.”

So, we keep on practicing.

To think that “we as perfected jiva-souls” ENTER the spiritual world is also not a correct thinking pattern. It is not like we leave here and go there…and BAMM we appear in Goloka Vrindavana…

The spiritual world is eternal. There exists only ETERNAL PRESENCE.

It is not that 10 minutes ago, this liberated jiva was here in this world and then it entered the spiritual world.

The spiritual world is not a “geographical place” (neither is our tatastha-sakti by the way). It is not bound on time and space. It is a world of pure spiritual consciousness of existence.

Many people look up or wave to the sky when they talk about the spiritual world. But actually, it is RIGHT here…we are just not aware of it.

Already here our mind is defeated…

And to think that these spiritual forms are already there and man, what are they doing in the “meantime”…the mind bites its own tail…

THERE IS NO MEANTIME. There, in Goloka Vrindavana, is only NOW.

All is happening now. Ooooops…

When our citta (consciousness) is filled to the brim with the inner potency (svarupa-sakti) through the practice of raganuga-bhakti in the anugatya of Sri Gurudeva and the Vaishnavas, we can start to “GRASP” these transcensdental “secrets”.

The more we are “spiritualizing” our consciousness in the direction of pure bhakti, the more we will realize.

Right now we need metaphors like the forms “being inactive”. We “activate” them by our spiritual bhava. The true alchemy takes place when we fully identify with our Krishna-given form and when we do our seva to the Divine Couple in our siddha-deha.

Glimpses of our siddha-deha can be experienced at the stage of asakti.

I asked this same question to my Guru, Srila Ananta das Babaji.

He told me that the form is already there. The guru contacts in deep meditation Krishna´s form as the all-knowing guru and the Lord tells Sri Guru what form would be compatible with the feelings of the sadhaka. Then Sri Gurudeva reveals that form to the sadhaka and instructs him in bhajana. He told me that actually our seva-consciousness “activates” that form.

He told me that the form is like a nice cloth which Krishna is giving to the liberated soul. A cloth “made of topmost spiritual bhava”…

By practicing raganuga-bhakti in manjari-bhava-sadhana, the form we will be assigned to will actually come from Srimati Radhika.

Dr O.B.L Kapoor writes beautifully in ‘The Philosophy and Religion of Sri Caitanya’ p. 196-7:

“By constant meditation or smarana he [the sadhak] makes the whole of Vraja-lila live before him. He enters into that lila in his imagination and by serving Krsna, according to the particular bhAva or mode of bhakti adopted by him, lives in the ecstasy of that vicarious enjoyment. The imaginary transcendental body (antascintita siddha deha), however, is not wholly imaginary. It is a mental reflection of the transcendental body, which Bhagavan, out of His infinite kindness, imparts to the devotee. That the transcendental body is a gift of Bhagavan is corroborated by Bhag.Pur. 3.9.11, ‘yadyad dhiya, [in order to confer Your Grace on the devotees, You manifest Yourself in that very form they meditate upon You.]’ Sri Visvanath Cakravarti, in his commentary, interprets the text to mean that Bhagavan imparts to the devotee a transcendental body exactly like the one which he imagines himself to possess and which is essential for the particular mode of bhakti practised by him, because He is bound to do so on account of His always being subservient to the devotees.

(…)

When the devotee is sufficiently advanced in devotion, he becomes free of the 5 kosa’s and realizes the spiritual body. The spiritual body is made of shuddha-sattva, the luminous, expressive and unfettered substance of the spiritual order. The imaginary spiritual body (antascintita siddha deha), which the devotee contemplates in raganuga-bhakti, is an imperfect replica of the siddha-deha he attains on fruition of his devotion.

Narottama Thakur says in Prema-bhakti-candrika 54-55, sadhane bhaviba jaha, that what the devotee desires and meditates upon in the stage of sadhana, he actually attains on the completion of sadhana. The imaginary or contemplated transcendental body therefore, is just the proper transcendental body in the making (pakvApakva mAtra ze bicAra)”

We can also think of another, granted, material example. When we study to become a teacher, the diploma already are there in the university. We have to qualify for it and then the teacher signs the diploma. It is not that the diploma doesn´t exist. Neither is it already in the heart of the student. The student CHOOSES his “profession”.

Or another one:

A father buys a car for the son. He keeps the car in the garage and when the son is qualified, he receives the car.

This are of course material examples but they helped me very much.

How Krishna now “assigns” one of such siddha-dehas is then slowly revealed. But to fully understand the mystic potency of the Lord is impossible.

His mercy alone is our hope and in His kind words we trust.

Yoga Maya will arrange what we cannot understand right now.

Srila Vishvanatha Cakravartipad tells us in his Raga-Vartma-Chandrika:

“One may ask: “Why don’t you say: ‘When the sadhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopika-body in the spiritual world (aprakata prakasa) without first taking birth from the womb of a gopika, after which he manifests sneha, etc. there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopis?” The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because without taking birth from the womb of a gopi one can not get a proper acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: “Whose daughter is this sakhi? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?” “Allright then”, one may say, “then why not take birth in the aprakata prakasa?” Then the answer is: “No, that can also not be! Sadhakas (practising devotees) or materially conditioned souls can not enter into the transcendental manifestation named Sri Vrindavana, only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sadhana the feelings of sneha and so on are not easily attained there. Therefore Yogamaya takes those devotees, whose prema has awoken, to Krishna’s materially manifest pastimes in Vrindavana when Krishna descends there, for the sake of perfecting their feelings like sneha etc. before they attain Sri Krishna’s bodily association. Because practising devotees, fruitive workers and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Sri Vrindavana, it is experienced as both sadhaka bhumi (the land for practitioners) and siddha bhumi (the land for the perfect).

“Then where will those most eager sadhakas stay all this time?” The answer is: “After the sadhaka-body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, even though he has not yet attained the manifestations of prema like sneha and so, just as the Lord once bestowed His Personal audience to Narada Muni in his previous birth (see Srimad Bhagavata Canto One, Chapter Six). He will give the sadhaka a transcendental gopika-body. Yogamaya will make that body take birth from a gopika-body in the manifest pastimes, when Sri Krishna descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will be not even the slightest delay in that, because the prakata lila goes on without interruption. The liberated devotee will take birth in that material universe where Krishna plays His manifest Vrindavana-lila at the time. Sri Krishna and His associates always appear when the loving practising devotee leaves His body. Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees! Do not fear! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You !”

It is a most astonishing and a most wonderful thing that by the mercy of Sri Krishna we can have an eternal loving relationship with Him. Amazing grace!

The potency to “activate” such a siddha-deha and to become fully “transformed” by the svarupa-sakti is already in the heart of the jiva-soul.

Receiving the bhakti-lata-bija from Sri Gurudeva starts this most amazing journey of the soul.

My Gurudeva said that Srimati Radhika goes on “abhisara” every night (abhi-sara => closer to Her Beloved). He wrote that we too are on an “abhisara”. We are on the way to a most wonderful and EVERLSTING “future”…

On the way to a place where all questions will be answered by just BEING “THERE”.

Jay Sri Gurudeva.

Jay Sri Radhe.

Dandavats.

Special thanks to Advaita das.

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Origin of the siddha deha

This is the gist of a discussion I had with Kṛṣṇa Dās (Robert Gafrik PhD Slovakia) on the siddha deha:

Advaitadās: In connection with the origin of the siddha deha the following text is quoted from Prīti Sandarbha (10):

"In the spiritual world, the Supreme Lord has unlimited spiritual forms; they all are expansions of Himself illuminating that world. Of these mūrtis Bhagavān gives one mūrti to each liberated soul. Their mūrti is like the one of Lord Vaikuṇṭha."

The translation is mine, but I am getting my doubts about the word kriyata here. Some people say that this word means that Kṛṣṇa is creating a spiritual body for the soul here."

Kṛṣṇa Das: "The root kṛ in Sanskrit can actually have any meaning, it does not mean just "create". It is akin to the English "do". One can express every activity with it. Kriyate in the passage does not mean that the spiritual body is created. The text itself says that mūrtayas tatra vartante, they are there eternally, tāsām (out of them) ekayā saha (with one) muktasya (of the liberated) ekasya (of the one) mūrtir (body) bhagavatā (by the Lord) kriyate (assign), i.e. the Lord awards one of the bodies that eternally reside in Vaikuṇṭha (in an inactive state) to the liberated one. vaikuṇṭasya mūrtir iva mūrtir yeṣām, the body that one is given is similar (iva) to that of Lord Vaikuṇṭha. Jīva Goswāmī wants to explain that one achieves bhagavat-tulyatvam at the stage of utkrānta-mukti (gone forth or out, gone over or beyond , passed , surpassed, trespassing , exceeding – Monier Williams) by quoting the Bhāgavata verse (3.15.14 vasanti yatra puruṣāḥ) there (utkrānta-mukti-daśāyāṁ tu teṣāṁ bhagavat-tulyatvam evāha). There is nothing like that that the spiritual body is created at some time. It is eternal. It is aprākṛta. The fact itself should make it clear that it can't be created. "

Advaitadās: "Thank you for that. The word kriyata is the key to the whole issue and as you said it can have any meaning. That makes it extra hard and intriguing. The word vartante means 'they stay there eternally' because it is in present tense and Jīva Gosvāmī said that present tense indicates eternity? And also your addition 'in an inactive state' is not clear to me from the mūla text. If we cannot come to a definite conclusion about the Prīti Sandarbha text, is there any other text in śāstra you could provide to prove your point that the siddha deha is not created?"

Kṛṣṇa Das: "As far as I know there is only the discussion in Prīti Sandarbha and the prayujyamāna-verse (SBhāgavata 1.6.28 or 29, according to edition) with commentaries that deal with the siddha deha. Apart from that there is a discussion about this issue in the 4th chapter of Vedanta-sūtras, where it is said that the liberated soul can exist with or without a body. It would be good to see commentaries of the ācāryas on the sūtras. I don't have them here now. If both meanings are possible one has to see the context. And I would say that the context rules out the interpretation that the body is created because in the previous sentence Jīva Gosvāmī says that mūrtayas tatra vartante. They are there and the Lord gives (kriyate) one such form to the devotee. This is a natural sequence. Otherwise one will have difficulty to explain why he says that the mūrtis are already there. Yes, vartante is in present tense; more precisely, it is something we would call present simple in English, and the tense mostly indicates that something happens or is always, ie. eternally. The verb vartante itself denotes existence. In addition, siddha-deha or spiritual body cannot be created because it is transcendental. We can say only about material things that they are created. The logic behind my phrase "in inactive state" is that we are limited by our language and our experience when we talk about transcendental things. These things are actually acintya but we need some explanation so we say that it is in an inactive state before one is awarded such a body. The verse from Bhakti Rasāmṛta Sindhu (1.2.294-5) about siddha-deha does not mean that the body is created. My Guruji once told me that it descends into the mind of the devotee in a "shadow" form. It is eternal but makes itself manifest in the mind. The body has a beginning only from our material perspective."

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Jagadananda Das

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Jun 7, 2022 at 3:05pm Uttamasloka likes thisQuotePost OptionsPost by Jagadananda Das on Jun 7, 2022 at 3:05pm

Radhe Radhe! I have to hand it to you, Uttama, that was good.

It is a very topical issue these days and I suppose that this is an attempt to somehow preserve Srila Prabhupada's position of infallibility when it appears that he said things of that sort, i.e., that it was inherent.

"The awakening of one's eternal nature" this is something we have heard. Going "back to home" is also a strong emotional appeal. The nostalgia for something never experienced. This was, of course, common "yoga" talk in the 60's--the message was that we were alienated beings because we did not really belong here in this world. So it was an easy and effective message that was tried and true. Hari was probably assigned the task of reconciling Prabhupada's statements, which are an ongoing source of annoyance to many unalloyed followers of Prabhupada.

So ISKCON, in particular, has been going at this reconciliation ever since Hridayananda, trying to juggle all of it into some kind of coherent whole. There is a great fear that Prabhupada should be wrong on such an important point. And indeed it is an important point that returns again and again. It is not just once or twice in the acharyas' writings. It is something they repeat again and again: Bhakti is sudurlabha.

In that respect, I think it appropriate to adjust one's understanding of things he said that one has difficulty with. Bracketing, it is called. "In my current stage of knowledge I cannot assess whether this is right or wrong, or the correct explanation, so I will wait for a sign."

An important point you made is that there is a difference between jiva-svarupa and siddha-deha, though the language can be a bit confusing at times. That clarifies it nicely, Prabhupada's honor is saved. It is the svarupa of the jiva that is eternal. By nature it is service and relatedness to God in some way that needs to be enriched and cultivated, invariably through the grace of devotees who know God in a particular, intimate way, in order to grow into prema-bhakti in the siddha-deha.

In this matter, Jiva's language can be taken as metaphorical without too much danger. Those bodies are lying there in Goloka like in a big mannequin factory warehouse just waiting to be animated by a butterfly-like soul? Or perhaps a better example is that of a shoe-keeper at the temple door, who will return your shoes once you present your ticket? All these gross analogies are unnecessary. The achintya-shakti operates in ways that cannot be clearly delineated in the way that the material energy can. It means that the idea is waiting for its time to come.

Jai Sri Radhe, hope you are well.

This passage is problematic:

"However, the Prīti-sandarbha quote above has clearly mentioned that it is "lopa" (disappearance) of that jñāna which is nitya-guṇa (intrinsic quality) of the jīva. Clearly, the terms abhāva (lack) and lopa (disappearance) do not tally with each other. Neither does anyone have the eyes to look into the window of anādi-kāla and determine if it was abhāva (lack) or lopa (disappearance) of intrinsic jñāna of the jīva which caused its bondage in this world."

One of the meanings of lopa is absence. see Monier M. Williams, Apte etc. To try to find a contradiction within the eka-vākya of Śrīla Jīva Gośvāmīpada in order to insert an idea of inherence from a later strata is an anachronism.

see the Sarva-Saṁvādinī commentary of Jīva Gośvāmin under Anuccheda 11 of Tattva-Sandarbhaḥ for his methodology.

tac ca vākyaṁ mahā-vākyānugatam | mahā-vākyaṁ ca vākya-samudāyaḥ | asyārthas tūpakramopasaṁhārādibhir evāvadhāryate | tathā hi [bra.sū. 1.1.47 mādhva-bhāṣya-dhṛta-bṛhat-saṁhitā-vākyam]—

upakramopasaṁhārāv abhyāso'pūrvatā phalam |

arthavādopapattī ca liṅgaṁ tātparya-nirṇaye ||

(1) upakramopasaṁhārayor eka-rūpatvam, (2) [abhyāsaḥ] paunaḥpunyam, (3) [apūrvatā] anadhigatatvam, (4) phalaṁ prayojanam, (5) [artha-vādaḥ] praśaṁsā, (6) [upapattiḥ] yuktimattvaṁ ceti ṣaḍ-vidhāni tātparya-liṅgāni

"Indicators of tātparya are of six types: (1) uniformity of the beginning and conclusion, (2) repetition, that is, reiteration [of the subject], (3) unprecedented,

the unknown aspect [of the subject], (4) the result, that is, the purpose [of attaining the subject], (5) praise, that is, glorification [of attaining the subject], (6) reasoning, that is, reasonability [of the subject]."

To discount the uniformity of the Sandarbha is to imply that Śrīla Jīva Gośvāmī fails to use his own methodology and therefore that the Sandarbha fails to achieve what it set out to is to make a pretty inflammatory assertion.

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There is a devotee on FaceBook named Hari Parsada. He’s an Indian Vaisnava, and does Sanskrit and Bengali translation work, and he sometimes writes articles that he posts on FaceBook.

Well, he posted an article titled: ~ Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~

As you will read below, the article is full of bizarre, unfounded and absurd speculations with no support from guru, sadhu and sastra. It required a lengthy and thoughtful response because it covers a lot of esoteric ground.

And now, after posting my direct responses to his assertions, Hari Parsada has deleted my comments instead of directly responding to them and defending his position. That shows very little integrity and is very disingenuous. It appears he cannot defend his speculations, as you will see below.

This is a perfect example of someone who can translate Sanskrit, but who does not have the adhikara to understand the subject properly, yet thinks he does. Very dangerous.

So I'm posting his article here with my responses and we can discuss it here since he appears to be too cowardly to do that directly. He is afraid to engage in a serious vada discussion.

I will preface his statements with HP, enclosed within <> and my responses are prefaced with US.

HP: < Bhakti Intrinsic to the Jiva's Existence ~

The Pandora's box opens up with two popular verses — one from the Caitanya-caritāmṛtam and the other from the Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhuḥ:

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema ’sādhya’ kabhu naya

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte karaye udaya

nitya-siddhasya bhāvasya

prākaṭyaṁ hṛdi sādhyatā

US: Being a translator yourself, I’m surprised you didn’t offer your own direct translation, since you know full well what the verse actually states. It’s not a cryptic sutra from the Vedanta-sutras. It’s very simple and straight forward.

Here is the direct translation by a respected Vaisnava Sanskrit scholar. Notice in the word for word, there is no original phrase for "in the hearts of the living entities". Here is the line by line translation for comparison:

nitya-siddha kṛṣṇa-prema - Eternally existent [fixed, perfect, unchanging] Krishna prema

sādhya kabhu naya - never be attained [by any means].

śravaṇādi-śuddha-citte - In the mind purified by hearing and chanting

karaye udayacan - it appears [like the sun rising].

Now, before everyone has a knee-jerk fit, mistakenly projecting that I am contradicting or offending Srila Prabhupada, let me point out that this direct translation is in perfect sync with the translation from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.2, and the commentaries of Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, who explain exactly what those verses mean, so there is no need for speculation or confusion or spin. They have given the direct unambiguous understanding.

From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu - note the last paragraph of Jiva Gosvami’s commentary and specifically, the last sentence:

Now sādhana-bhakti will be defined: Action of the senses, which produces the stage of bhāva, is called sādhana-bhakti. This attained state of bhāva-bhakti (sādhyatā) is an eternal sthāyi-bhāva which is not created, *but simply manifests within the soul by the spiritual energy of the Lord*. BRS, 1.2.2

From Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:

In order to distinguish this sādhana-bhakti from forms of bhakti that involve direct realization of the Lord, the word sādhya-bhāvā is used: sādhana ends with the attainment of bhāva. Sādhana is that by which bhāva and prema are achieved. Bhāva is not included in sādhana.

However, the sādhya-rüpa or perfected form is also bhakti, being a part of it. The word sādhya-bhāvā (one meaning is “whose goal is bhāva-bhakti” but another meaning is “achieving its goal”) in any case excludes other goals of human endeavor (artha, dharma, kāma and mokṣa). This was already mentioned in the definition of uttama-bhakti (anyābhilāṣitā-śünyam) which includes within it this present definition.

A doubt may arise that since this state is achieved (sādhya), implying that it is artificially produced, it is not the ultimate goal. The second line responds to this doubt by saying that it is eternal, and simply appears within the heart. **That is because its appearance (but not its creation) will be accomplished in the future by the special actions of the most excellent transformations (saṁvit and hlādinī) of Lord’s svarüpa-śakti (which are perfect and eternal).**

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary is virtually the same as Jiva Gosvami, including the last sentence.

For further confirmation, let’s examine Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.3.1, ie: the first verse in the chapter on Bhava-bhakit, which is the goal of sadhana-bhakti. Note the sections I’ve highlighted with * *

That part of bhakti is called bhāva, whose essence is saṁvit and hlādinī-śakti, which is one ray of the sun of prema, which will soon rise in the heart, and which softens the heart with desires to meet, serve, and exchange love with the Lord. BRS, 1.3.1

From Jiva Gosvami's commentary:

Therefore, the meaning is this. That general bhakti, which was defined as favorable service to the Lord, is called bhava when referring to one particular portion of it called bhava-rupa-bhakti. *What is the essential nature of that bhava? Bhava has, as its svarupa or essence, Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, in the form of hladini and samvit.*

[Note this paragraph]

*This svarupa is an eternal object, an eternal manifestation (nitya-siddha), situated within the eternal dear associates of the Lord.* Uniting itself with its place of appearance (namely, the mind of the devotee), this bhava becomes a variety of mental conditions (citta-vrtti) characterized by a favorable attitude to the Lord.

Furthermore, this bhava softens the heart (mind) with its desires for meeting the Lord, serving the Lord favorably, and attaining the friendship of the Lord. This bhava is also the sprout, which will become prema, and which will be described later.

By comparing prema to the sun, there is the suggestion that, just as the sun will appear soon after the light of dawn, prema will appear very soon after the appearance of bhava. As well, it is like a ray of the sun; it is the first glow of the sun of prema. It will be explained later that prema is the condensed form of bhava: (BRS 1.4.1)

If one is particularly inquisitive about proofs, one should see the Priti-sandarbha. ***Though this bhava is seen in the eternal associates of the Lord, the mental conditions of the devotees within this world become similar, by the mercy of the Lord and His devotees. By this mercy alone it shall appear. There is no need to elaborate further.*** [end]

“BY THIS MERCY ALONE IT SHALL APPEAR. There is no need to elaborate further.” Those are Jiva Gosvami’s words - the leading scholarly acarya in the Gaudiya Vaisnava sampradaya.

Jiva Gosvami states clearly, unequivocally, and irrefutably, that bhava and prema are nitya-siddha and they reside in the hearts of the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. And that bhava and eventually prema, appears in the heart by Krsna’s and their mercy, ie: it is not already there.

If it was already in every jiva’s heart, it would have been stated clearly, unequivocally and irrefutably, right there in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, but such statements are nowhere to be found in these verses or commentaries, nor in any others in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. Those are the facts.

Note carefully that bhava’s essence is 'samvit and hladini', neither of which are part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. They are features of the svarupa-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas are a distinct category from the svarupa-sakti and maya-sakti. The tatastha-sakti jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya, or they can attain the svarupa-sakti - the spiritual world.

The svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas is discussed in great detail by Baladeva Vidyabhusana in the fourth section of the Vedanta-sutras and in Jiva Gosvami’s Paramatma-sandarbha. In neither of those discussions will you find any shred of evidence that any part of the svarupa-sakti is within the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas. No such statements exist or are implied. Sat-cit-ananda are not exactly the same either and those details are explained by Jiva Gosvami as well.

So logically, if bhava’s essence is classified as such, then what to speak of prema, since bhava is described as prema's one ray. Hladini and samvit saktis can never be covered by maya-sakti. That is not possible. That is a core eternal Vedic tattva, along with all the siddhantas that follow from it, ie: the tatastha-sakti jivas could not have prema in their hearts because jivas can be covered by maya’s avidya and hladini and samvit can never be covered by maya-sakti.

What is there in the jivas’ hearts is the ‘potential’ and ‘eligibility’ to attain prema - a relationship with Krsna in Vraja lila.

Therefore, simple sastric logic leads us to the inevitable and clear conclusion that Srila Prabhupada’s translation was ‘preaching for the masses’. It’s as simple as that.

No other reconciliation is acceptable because it would mean that Srila Prabhupada was knowingly or unknowingly contradicting core tattvas, and he would never do that, nor can we accept that he didn’t understand these tattvas and siddhantas.

HP: <On the other hand, other authorities say that prema is intrinsic to the existence of the jīva. It merely has to be "discovered" and is not begotten from an external source. These two viewpoints are certainly contradictory, and a resolution is definitely needed.

US: All of the verses you quoted only prove that the jiva simply realizes his/her svarupa, and Jiva Gosvami never said that it includes a relationship or rasa with Krsna in a particular lila.

No such verses or discussions are there in Priti-sandarbha or Paramatma-sandarbha which indicate a pre-existing relationship. And it’s not in the Vedanta-sutras either.

You’ll have to provide direct unequivocal sastra and statements from the purva acaryas indicating that a pre-existing relationship with Krsna in one of His lilas is part of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas.

HP: However, the Prīti-sandarbha quote above has clearly mentioned that it is "lopa" (disappearance) of that jñāna which is nitya-guṇa (intrinsic quality) of the jīva. Clearly, the terms abhāva (lack) and lopa (disappearance) do not tally with each other. Neither does anyone have the eyes to look into the window of anādi-kāla and determine if it was abhāva (lack) or lopa (disappearance) of intrinsic jñāna of the jīva which caused its bondage in this world.

US: There was no ‘cause’ like that for the jiva’s bondage in the material worlds. Sastra doesn’t teach that, and neither does Krsna nor the purva acaryas. The tatastha-sakti jivas were created specifically to assist in the manifestation of sristi-lila - the material worlds. And that is for Krsna’s pleasure, since He can do things in these worlds that He cannot do in the spiritual world.

And that requires tatastha-sakti jivas who are given all facilities for pleasure in these worlds. Unless of course they screw up and do bad things, in which case, they are responsible and suffer for their own actions.

Here is what Krsna and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura teach:

O intelligent Uddhava! The bondage of the jiva, who is my one part or tatastha-sakti, by avidya, *is without beginning*. By vidya, he achieves liberation which has a beginning. SB, 11.11.4

From the commentary by Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura:

Bondage and liberation of My śakti, the jīva, which are apparent only, is caused by My avidyā-śakti, which produces the imposition of the body, and liberation is produced by My vidyā-śakti which removes the imposition of the body. This is brought about under the influence of My śakti which functions for the pastime of creation and destruction of the universe.

The jīva-śakti exists in various conditions in various bodies by māyā-śakti. *From the statement of Viṣṇu-purana, it is understood that the jīva-śakti is generally controlled by māyā-śakti for accomplishing the pastime of creation of the universe.* That is stated in the verse. The jīva is bound by avidyā. *Avidyā is beginningless because karma is beginningless*. When liberation takes place, avidyā has an end for that particular jīva. Liberation, because it is produced, has a beginning. But because it is indestructible, it has no end.

HP: <In the same Prīti-sandarbha, it is specified that although the jīva is in a conditioned state right now, but there is a potential eternal spiritual body waiting since time immemorial to be assigned to the jīva in the spiritual world. This is specified in the Prīti-sandarbha as follows — anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante, tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtiḥ bhagavatā kriyate — "Unlimited [eternal] bodily forms exist in Vaikuṇṭha. Out of those unlimited eternal forms, the liberated soul is assigned one form by Bhagavān". — (Prīti-sandarbha, 10)

US: Once again, context is important. This section of the Priti-sandarbha deals specifically and ONLY with the five types of mukti by which one attains Vaikuntha, and this specific section is referring to sarupya-mukti, ie: desiring a form like the Lord’s form - a four-armed form.

Those forms mentioned are forms like Visnu’s or His other expansions, which are desired by those mukta-jivas. We read about that in Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita, when Gopa-kumara visits Vaikuntha.

And are we supposed to think or assume that those who desire these various types of liberation in Vaikuntha, had those desires intrinsically in their hearts all along just waiting to burst out? That makes no sense.

Those mukta-jivas are simply fulfilling their own personal desires for the type of liberation they cultivated during their sadhana, which developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga and sadhana.

And Vaikuntha prema is limited to santa, dasya, and a bit of sakhya for the residents, and those types of prema are not even close to the same level as Vraja prema, which is the highest attainment and involves a very different process.

What is described in that section of Priti-sandarbha is not the method for attaining an eternal form in Vraja lila, which is an entirely different process, as explained by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentaries to Ujjvala-nilamani and Raga-vartma-candrika, as well as Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s Jaiva-dharma and Hari-nama-cintamani.

From Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura’s commentary in Ujjvala-nilamani, 3.51:

“If those present day persons practicing rāgānuga attain prema in some birth by going through the states of niṣṭhā, ruci, and āsakti, they become qualified for service to the Lord. At the time of leaving the body, will they attain the positions of associates beyond the material world, or participate when the Lord descends as avatāra?”

Since it is impossible for the transformations of prema such as sneha, māna, praṇaya to appear in the body of a sādhaka, by the power of associating in gopī bodies with nitya-siddha gopīs having mahābhāva, and by seeing, hearing, remembering and chanting about the qualities of the Lord, they will certainly attain such a position. Since these methods are very powerful, without them one cannot attain perfection as a gopī.

The young gopīs took the greatest pleasure in seeing Govinda come home, since for them even a moment was like a hundred yugas. SB 10.19.16

The meaning is this. Who are the gopīs? Those for whom a moment seemed like a hundred yugas attained the supreme bliss. Truṭir yugāyate: Half a second becomes as long as an entire age for us. (SB 10.31.15) This is a characteristic of mahābhāva. It is not seen that the sādhakas of this world enter into the pastimes of Vṛndāvana unmanifest in this world, whereas it is seen that the siddhas enter to those pastimes.

Thus it is only a place for siddhas, for stages like sneha do not quickly manifest by one’s own sādhana. Thus, by yogamāyā, devotees who have developed prema join at the time of Kṛṣṇa’s avatāra in the manifestation of Vṛndāvana in this world as a preliminary attainment.

This can be inferred by seeing that sādhakas, various materialistic persons and siddhās all enter this earthly Vṛndāvana. It is the place for sādhakas and siddhas, where they can perfect their bhāvas before associating directly with Kṛṣṇa.

“How can the devotees with strong eagerness endure for such a long time?” This is not a long time at all, since there are unlimited universes. The manifest pastimes continue unbroken.

The devotee attains a body of a gopī in the Vṛndāvana of some other universe were the Vṛndāvana pastimes are appearing at that moment. That is the sequence.

To the devotee having great longing for direct service for a long time, who has developed prema by intense and constant rāgānuga-sādhana, the merciful Lord one time directly shows himself with his associates, with realization of service, even to a person in a sādhaka body, in a dream, though he has not developed sneha and other stages.

He gives a spiritual gopī body endowed with proper bhāvas, as he gave a spiritual body to Nārada. Then, when Kṛṣṇa and his associates appear in a manifest Vṛndāvana, that body is born in a womb of a gopī by the arrangement of yoga-māyā in order to perfect sneha and other varieties of prema.

The pastimes of Kṛṣṇa in human pastimes with gopīs born of humans are famous. Without being born as a “human,” there can be no perfection. Though Lakṣmī accepted the exalted position of the gopīs, because she did not accept the permission of the gopīs to be born in a gopī womb, Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes with her could not take place.

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains this in Raga-vartma-candrika, where he discusses taking birth in bhauma-lila to perfect one’s prema:

One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”

The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’

‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakaṭa-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.

Therefore, those devotees for whom yoga māyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on (sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, mahabhava), arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.

Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhūmi and siddha bhūmi.

Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”

Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.

He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption.

He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.

Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7

In Kṛṣṇa Book, Śrīla Prabhupāda confirms the truth of this new beginning:

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vṛndāvana līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. KB, Chapter 28, Releasing Nanda Mahārāja from the Clutches of Varuṇa

So we see here clearly that the forms bestowed upon the prema-bhaktas in bhauma-lila, which they attain by taking birth from a nitya-siddha gopi, simply facilitate the expression and further development of the bhava and preliminary prema that was developed by the sadhaka and then awarded by Krsna previously. The devotee has to further perfect their prema in the direct association of the Vraja-vasi and especially Radha and Krsna.

HP: <Thus, when some ācāryas say that prema is eternally dormant in the heart of the jīva, the meaning is that it is dormant in the hearts of *THESE ETERNAL SPIRITUAL BODIES*. Each spiritual body in the spiritual world has all sense organs, including a heart. Prema is intrinsically and eternally present in that very heart that the jīva possesses in the spiritual world. The ācāryas never say that prema is dormant in the conditioned heart of the material body of the jīva.

The eternally existing spiritual body is thus the upādāna-kāraṇa (substantial cause) and the mercy of Bhagavān or the nitya-siddha is the nimitta-kāraṇa (instrumental cause) of the manifestation of prema. In this way, the apparent contradictory opinions are harmonized, and such harmonization should be sought by all sāragrāhī vaiṣṇavas.>

US: This idea, and your additional comments, have to be the most bizarre unfounded speculation I’ve ever heard in these discussions, and based on all the evidence I’ve provided above regarding how bhava is actually attained and how prema is developed, it is blatantly obvious that your idea has no basis in sastra or the teachings of the previous acaryas. It is pure speculation and not at all in sync with what the acaryas have taught.

We don’t have to speculate. Especially not like this. It was clearly stated by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura what the facts are. Who is going to challenge them, or argue with their conclusions, or try to spin them?

Prema exists in the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasis. Nowhere is it said that prema exists in the hearts of unoccupied spiritual bodies in the spiritual world. Those spiritual bodies do NOT have prema. There is no sastric support for that strange idea. Those bodies are not living persons with emotions. Prema comes from the hearts of living jivas - either nitya-siddhas or sadhana-siddhas - not a so-called actual pumping heart in an unoccupied spiritual body.

You are mixing up material concepts with spiritual reality. Not good. Very dangerous and very convoluted.

Prema does not exist without some sort of relationship with Krsna and a relationship cannot exist without it coming from a living jiva - not an unoccupied body. Unoccupied spiritual bodies do not have relationships with Krsna, thus they cannot have prema. That is rather absurd.

The spiritual body is simply the medium for participating in the lila and expressing all the prema and bhavas that entered the heart of the jiva when they attained bhava in their previous life. The jiva becomes one with that body. Bhava and prema come from the hearts of jivas - not directly from the bodies - via the bodies. The spiritual bodies in Vraja lila are made of pure bhava and they are capable of fully expressing the bhavas and prema that the sadhana-siddha is developing and experiencing.

HP: <If prema were to be "introduced" to the jīva at a certain point of time by an external agency, then such prema will also have to be introduced in the heart of the eternal spiritual body that the jīva is going to get post liberation.

That event itself will change the constitution of the eternal spiritual body, and a body which has undergone a fundamental constitutional change will cease to fall in the category of "eternal". Vipariṇāma (transformation) is a function of the material world, not the spiritual world.>

US: This is a good example of how wild baseless speculation beyond one’s adhikara leads to more strange and mistaken ideas like these, none of which have any support in sastra or from the previous acaryas. And yes - that is a vada comment. 😉 Where is the sastric or acarya support for these speculations?

HP: <Thus, when it is said that prema is "bestowed" by a nitya-siddha devotee, it only means that the nitya-siddha devotee bestows a realization of that specific flavor and those specific details of the prema that is already dormant in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body that is waiting to be assigned to the jīva post liberation. It doesn't mean that the nitya-siddha literally pours half a gallon of prema in the heart of the conditioned jīva. >

US: No it does not mean that or anything remotely close to that as we now know by simply studying the commentaries of the previous acaryas as I have posted. None of what you said can be supported by guru, sadhu and sastra.

HP: <The nitya-siddha cannot bestow prema in the conditioned heart of the material body, since the conditioned heart is a product of māyā and is thus an unfit container for receiving prema. Neither can the nitya-siddha generate such prema in the eternal heart of the eternal spiritual body, because such a body is already eternally perfect and is simply waiting in a dormant state in the spiritual world.

Therefore, the "bestowing" of prema by a nitya-siddha devotee is nothing but revelation of the eternal perfected identity (siddha deha) that exists already in the spiritual world.>

US: You clearly do not understand how prema is attained and who bestows it and how it enters the heart and mind of the jiva. That much is obvious. Krsna bestows bhava-bhakti and one’s prema develops preliminarily from that stage after one’s sthayi-bhava begins to manifest, while one is still in this material body.

These details are all in the later sections of Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu and specifically having to do with rasa. The full stages of prema can only be developed in bhauma-lila in direct association with all the Vraja-vasis.

We saw in the references from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu above that bhava-bhakti is the goal (sadhya-bhakti) of sadhana-bhakti, and that is the ray of prema. The key point to understand is this. Prema is not generic. It is specific to each type of relationship with Krsna, either in Vaikuntha or Vraja lila. And in Vraja lila there are many flavors - see the attached chart.

Vraja prema is the goal (prayojana) taught by Lord Caitanya and the process (abhidheya) He taught was raganuga-bhakti. Nothing else. To become qualified to practice raganuga-bhakti, one must first develop a genuine intense desire for the raga and bhava of a particular Vraja-vasi that one has chosen. It is not pre-determined. No acaryas teach that one’s relationship is predetermined or inherent.

One’s desired relationship and identity is developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga (which is the influential component) and sadhana, as explained by Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu.

If one’s relationship was inherent and simply had to be uncovered, that fact would have been explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, which is the handbook for Gaudiya Vaisnavas.

The acaryas would have explained it clearly and simply, ie: just uncover what is already there. It’s easy enough for them to say that. Not complicated. Yet we do not find anything remotely like that statement anywhere in the books of the previous acaryas. Nowhere. Nothing.

From Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu:

These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:

But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?

In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.

Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.

Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste.

This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas. [end]

Then, when has matured, Krsna awards one’s desired relationship and identity at the stage of bhava and that is when actual transcendental bhakti begins, ie: bhava-bhakti. Only from that stage can one develop one’s sthayi-bhava, which is essential for one to manifest the first stages of prema. These details are all explained in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu.

That is the process taught by Lord Caitanya and all the acaryas. The stage of bhava is only attained when Krsna awards it:

Bhakti (bhāva) is rarely obtained: Bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways: if undertaken in great quantity but without attachment, bhakti cannot be attained even after a long time, and even if practiced with attachment, Kṛṣṇa does not give bhakti (bhava) to the practitioner immediately. BRS, 1.1.35

Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

However, even with all sādhana and āsakti, the Lord does not quickly give bhāva-bhakti. He does give bhāva, but after a delay. In this way, bhāva-bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways. [end]

One attains svarupa-siddhi at the stage of bhava, ie: one attains the siddha-deha that one has been meditating on during raganuga-sadhana-bhajana.

From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:

I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55

The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56

So you have to have a clear conception of what kind of relationship you want to have with Krsna in Vraja, along with the details of your identity through which that relationship will be exchanged.

Prema is dependent upon the type of relationship you desire so the relationship comes first and then the prema after. If you do not have a clear conception of all these desires then you can’t really begin the process. Here are more references which elaborate on that idea:

The supreme Lord has no favorite and no dearmost friend, nor does He consider anyone undesirable, despicable or fit to be neglected. All the same, He lovingly reciprocates with His devotees in whatever manner they worship Him, just as the trees of heaven fulfill the desires of whoever approaches them. SB, 10.38.22

From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

The words yathā tathā mean that Kṛṣṇa responds to His devotees according to how they worship Him. This is in accordance with His statement: “As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly.” (BG, 4.11)

The words sura-drumo yadvad (like a heavenly desire tree) indicate how the various degrees of fruits awarded correspond to the various degrees of shelter taken.

As there is no discrepancy if the kalpa-vṛkṣa (desire tree) does not give fruits to a person who does not take shelter of it, similarly it is so in the case of the Supreme Lord. However, whereas the Lord is dependent upon His surrendered devotees, the kalpa-vṛkṣa is not dependent on those who take shelter of it. Therefore, according to the devotion, Kṛṣṇa shows friendship, enmity or neutrality.

Nārada explains to Gopa-kumāra in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta:

According to the way one worships, the Lord awards different results. One who thus reaches the goal he has pursued never feels discontent. BB, 2.4.189

Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:

The Personality of Godhead knows everything there is to know. He is also the most merciful giver of charity. Why then doesn’t He give the same supreme happiness to all His devotees? It is because what He gives them depends on their expressed desires.

Then aren’t the devotees dissatisfied who receive happiness that is relatively less? No. When the Supreme Lord reciprocates the love of any of His pure devotees, the devotee is never left feeling incomplete, because everything the devotee wanted the Lord provides.

HP: <Some gurus bestow this perfected identity at the time of dīkṣā and this is known as siddha-praṇālī.>

US: And that particular type of siddha-pranali is consider bogus by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati and Srila Prabhupada. No guru bestows a perfected identity on anyone. That is not possible and none of the purva acaryas have taught that or were taught that by Lord Caitanya. A guru does not impose or bestow an identity or relationship on a disciple. That is not the process taught by Lord Caitanya or the previous acaryas.

And how would any guru know what a disciple’s spiritual identity is in the first place if it hasn’t even developed yet? It’s quite ridiculous when you know how the abhidheya actually works and was taught by Lord Caitanya.

HP: <Some other gurus do not bestow it at the time of dīkṣā and expect the sādhaka to achieve the direct mercy of Bhagavān in order to get the revelation of their siddha-deha. Both processes work equally well.>

US: How can that be possible if a guru cannot bestow a perfected identity on anyone?

HP: <In this way, the two differing opinions of previous ācāryas are harmonized. A devotee faithful to his guru-janas should not think that his gurus merely gave some temporary siddhānta in this regard according to time, place and circumstance. If it is possible to reconcile and justify the views of one's guru-janas from śāstra, then the disciple should definitely take that route.>

US: I’m afraid I can’t agree with your conclusion that you have reconciled this issue. Far from it, actually, as the clear irrefutable evidence I’ve provided from guru, sadhu and sastra proves conclusively. Your ideas may be well meaning and I don’t doubt your sincerity or intentions, but you have seriously misunderstood some very important aspects of this esoteric topic.

After writing my responses, I posted two additional references in support of my statements. Here they are:

Two more references from the Vedanta-sutras and Priti-sandarbha for good measure:

VS, 3.3.29

Sometimes ruci-bhakti, using knowledge of His sweetness, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Sometimes vidhi-bhakti, using knowledge of the Lord’s power, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Which of these is the cause of attaining Him, since the two are different, caused by difference in the object of worship?

Sutra: By the will of the Lord, both paths of bhakti exist. There is no confusion about method, because of scriptural statements concerning both paths.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:

The word na (not) is understood from sutra 3.3.22. Both types of bhakti exist for jivas of either type, because of the will of the Lord, arising by association with devotees of these types.

Thus, it is not true that it is impossible to have advancement. Why? Because permission is given in statements concerning these two methods.

The meaning is this. Worship of the Lord’s eternal qualities of two types, starting from groups of eternal associates, spreads to the sadhakas like the flow of the Ganga from heaven to earth.

When the jivas of this universe get the chance to have devotee association (of one of these two types), the Lord, who relishes bhakti, desires to inspire these persons who have had devotional association to have attraction to His qualities. These jivas follow the Lord by that particular path. The devotees who give mercy to the jivas are understood to be madhyamas.

An intermediate or second-class devotee, called madhyama-adhikari, offers his love to the Supreme Lord, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to the ignorant people who are innocent, and disregards those who are envious of the Lord. SB, 11.2.46

Therefore, one cannot accuse the Lord of being partial (since the devotee gives the mercy).

From Jiva Gosvami's Priti-sandarbha:

Furthermore, we will also speak (show) that the prema of a devotee with a specific identity appears from the very nature of Bhagavan. All the manifestations (prakasas) of Bhagavan that are self-perfect are eternally existing in Bhagavan himself. This is shown in Sri Bhagavat-sandarbha, etc.

Also, in the agamas various types of worship are heard. In that regard, whichever prakasa [is considered], accordingly, the priti with a specific identity arises. *The cause for the specificity of the prakasa is the association of a specific devotee only.*

I stated in the original post, there are no additional statements by any acaryas that the forms attained by those entering bhauma-lila are also among those forms referred to in the Priti-sandarbha reference.

All indications from sastra and the acaryas are that Krsna manifests or awards our bodily form according to the desires we cultivated during sadhana. That is a very specific thing and not general like four-armed Vaikuntha forms that are not tied to a specific deep relationship with Krsna as in Vraja lila.

And keep in mind that one's eternal form is the external manifestation of one's desired identity, which comes directly from the jiva and is manifest through the medium of one's form. And we become one with our forms so to speak, ie: they are not external impositions.

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Jagadananda Das

Radhe Radhe! I have to hand it to you, Uttama, that was good.

Jai Sri Radhe, hope you are well.

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Hari Sharan It's true that there is no lila-based relationship with Krsna until it is cultivated. However, there is a 'connection/relationship' between the tatastha-sakti jivas and Paramatma that is eternal.

From Jiva Gosvami's, Paramatma-sandarbha, Anuccheda 37:

Now the jiva as a dependent of Paramatma will be discussed. The jiva is an amsa of Paramatma or is secondary to Paramatma. That is the jiva’s nature (svabhava). This is the case at all times even when the jiva is liberated.

That is jiva’s svarupa, not that Brahman when cut in pieces becomes jiva. By the Lord’s intrinsic, inconceivable sakti, the jiva is by nature dependent as an amsa, like a particle of a ray of light. This is the meaning of svatah.

Jiva has the nature of being the Lord’s sakti because he is part of the tatastha-sakti: because he eternally takes shelter of the Lord, being His ray; because he is separate from the Lord, being different; and because he is a medium of the Lord in the production of the material world.

Since pradhana is an insentient substance, it remains in a state of equilibrium (until the Lord places the jiva in it). Hetu jivo ‘sya sargadeh: the cause of sarga [creation of the universe] and visarga [subsequent creation by Brahma] of the universe is the jiva. (SB, 12.7.18)

Hari Sharan Here is a verse from Brahma-saṁhitā which explains our eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa in terms of our common spiritual nature, ie: oneness or non-difference - abheda, versus a personal relationship - rasa.

I’ve included the commentaries of Jīva Gosvāmī and Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura.

Note Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura’s statement in the second paragraph where he makes a clear distinction between the jīva’s eternal connection with Kṛṣṇa and the jīva’s eligibility to have a personal rasa, or relationship, with Him. And also take note that when describing the jīva’s eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa, neither Jīva Gosvāmī nor Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura discuss anything specifically related to Kṛṣṇa’s līlā, as one might have anticipated. Here is the verse and commentaries:

The living entities are eternal, and they have an eternal relationship with Bhagavān that extends throughout time, with neither beginning nor end. By constitution they are intrinsically His superior potency. BrS, 5.21

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:

The constitutional position of the living entities is being described in this half śloka beginning with the words sa nityaḥ. The word nitya (eternal) indicates that the living entity exists throughout beginningless and endless time. The living entity has an intimate and inseparable eternal relationship with Bhagavān, called samavāya-sambandha. The living entities have an eternal relationship with Bhagavān, just as the rays of the sun are always related to the sun.

This has been explained in the Nārada-pañcarātra:

The entity who is constituted of the marginal potency, who has been manifested from the knowledge aspect of transcendence, but who is colored by the influence of māyā’s qualities of goodness, passion and ignorance, is called the living entity (jīva).

It has also been stated in Bhagavad-gītā (15.7): “mamaivāmśo jīva-loke, jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ – the living entity is My part and parcel. He exists eternally as an individual living entity, and is therefore eternal by nature.” Thus the living entity is called superior energy. Prakṛti means that the living entity is a reflection of the image of Bhagavān, who is manifest as the indwelling witness, the Supersoul. In the form of the knower of the body, the living entity has attained a state like one of the Lord’s predominated potencies.

Therefore it is also stated in Bhagavad-gītā, 7.5: “prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām, jīva-bhūtām – the living entity is My superior potency.”

The eternal intrinsic nature of the living entity is also established by the Śvetāsvatara Upaniṣad (4.6): dvā suparṇa-sayujā sakhāyā; there, the individual jīvātmā and Paramātmā have been compared to two birds sitting on a branch of the same pīpala tree.

Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura’s Commentary:

Just as the relationship between the sun and its rays is eternal, similarly the living entities have an eternal relationship with Bhagavān, the transcendental sun. Since the living entities are particles of the rays of Bhagavān, they are not temporary like material substances, and His spiritual qualities are also partially present in them.

Therefore, by his intrinsic nature, the living entity is knowledge, the knower, the possessor of ego, the enjoyer, the thinker and the doer. Śrī Kṛṣṇa is unlimited, omniscient and omnipotent.

The living entity is Bhagavān’s eternal servant, and Bhagavān is the jīva’s eternal master. The living entities are also eligible for exchanging transcendental loving rasas with Bhagavān. From the Bhagavad-gītā statement, apareyam itas tv anyām prakṛtiṁ viddhi me parām, it is understood that the living entity is Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s superior potency.

All the qualities of the pure jīvātmā are beyond the eight components of the inferior energy, beginning with false ego. Thus, although the potency that comprises the living entities is insignificant, being composed of tiny spiritual particles, it is still superior to māyā. This potency is also known as the marginal potency.

The word “marginal” (taṭasthā) indicates that it is situated on the marginal line between the material energy and the eternal reality of spiritual existence. The living entity is liable to come under the control of māyā because of his infinitesimal nature.

The living entities who have been conditioned from time immemorial suffer the distress of material existence, and repeatedly rotate in the cycle of birth and death. However, when the living entity submits and remains under the control of Śrī Kṛṣṇa, the master of māyā, he can never fall under the control of māyā.

RASA IS DERIVED/CHOSEN, NOT INHERENT/PREDETERMINED

"The servitor living being, if at all he wants to relish any of the above rasas, must reciprocate the same with Sri Krishna who is the unlimited ocean or source of all rasas. One can DERIVE any amount of rasa of a particular type from that resource simply by such reciprocation with Krishna.

Gopala Tapani Upanisad directs therefore conclusively that Sri Krishna is the Supreme Fountain-Head of all the rasas which is also confirmed by the sruti or the Vedas. One should therefore always meditate upon Sri Krishna to DERIVE a particular type of rasa, ACCORDING TO ONE´S CHOICE and under proper direction of the spiritual master."

(Srila Prabhupada in Back to Godhead, vol. 3, part 17, April 15, 1960)

Interestingly, this was written in 1960, long before Srila Prabhupada started to preach to Western audiences.

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10.3 The Liberated Souls Have Spiritual Bodies

paścāt tu nitya-sālokyam eva, yathā bhaviṣyottare—

evaṁ kaunteya kurute yo’raṇya-dvādaśīṁ naraḥ |

sa dehānte vimāna-stha-divya-kanyā-samāvṛtaḥ ||

yāti jñāti-samāyuktaḥ śvetadvīpaṁ hareḥ puram |

yatra lokā pīta-vastrā ity-ādi |

But later on they attain eternal sālokya, as is stated in Bhaviṣya Purāṇa, Uttara Parva.

O son of Kuntī, in this way a person who observes the fast of Araṇya Dvādaśī, after giving up his body, riding an aeroplane, accompanied by his relatives and surrounded by divine damsels, he goes to Śvetadvīpa, the abode of Bhagavān Hari where people are adorned in yellow garments. (66.21-22b)

tiṣṭhanti viṣṇu-sānnidhye yāvad-āhūta-samplavam |

tasmād etya mahā-vīryāḥ pṛthivyāṁ nṛpa pūjitāḥ |

martya-loke kīrtimantaḥ sambhavanti narottamāḥ ||

tato yānti paraṁ sthānaṁ mokṣa-mārgaṁ śivaṁ sukham |

yatra gatvā na śocanti na saṁsāre bhramanti ca || iti |

It further says:

They stay in the proximity of Bhagavān Viṣṇu until the final dissolution. After that, O King, they are born as great powerful personalities on earth, having fame in the world and honored by people. After that they go to the supreme abode, the place of liberation, which is auspicious and pleasurable. Having reached that place they neither lament nor wander back into the material world. (Uttara Parva 66.23b-26)

yathā ca jaya-vijaya-vṛtte tatra sālokyodāharaṇe | tat-sādhaka-daśāyām api nairguṇyāveśa uktaḥ | "sāttvikaḥ kārako'saṅgī" ity-ādau "nirguṇo mad-apāśrayaḥ" (11.25.26) iti |

The example of the other (coming down to participate in Bhagavān's pastime) is the history of Jaya and Vijaya. This is an example of sālokya mukti. A devotee is beyond the guṇas of nature even in the practising stage, as Kṛṣṇa said: "One who takes shelter of Me and works is nirguṇa." (SB 11.25.26)

utkrānta-mukti-daśāyāṁ tu teṣāṁ bhagavat-tulyatvam evāha—

vasanti yatra puruṣāḥ sarve vaikuṇṭha-mūrtayaḥ |

ye’nimitta-nimittena dharmeṇārādhayan harim || [bhā.pu. 3.15.14]

And in the state of liberation after giving up the body, they are described as equal to Bhagavān:

All the people residing there have a form similar to Bhagavān Vaikuṇṭha, and are engaged in the worship of Hari without any motive. (SB 3.15.14)

[Vaikuṇṭha refers to both the abode as well as the master of the abode.]

nimittaṁ phalaṁ na tan-nimittaṁ pravartakaṁ yasmin tena niṣkāmenety arthaḥ | dharmeṇa bhāgavatākhyena |

"Motive" (nimittam) means the result [or reason for which one engages in an action], therefore, animitta-nimittena means "that which is not inspired by any desire for result." It means desirelessness. "Religious duties" (dharmena) refers to the Bhāgavata-dharma.

vaikuṇṭhasya bhagavato jyotir-aṁśa-bhūtā vaikuṇṭha-loka-śobhā-rūpā yā anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtiḥ bhagavatā kriyata iti vaikuṇṭhasya mūrtir iva mūrtir yeṣām ity uktam

"There are unlimited forms existing there (in the spiritual world), each of which is a portion of the effulgence of Bhagavān, also known as Vaikuṇṭha, that beautifies His abode. Bhagavān assigns (kriyata) these forms for each liberated self. The liberated self join one of these forms. For this reason, it was said that the people residing there have forms like that of Bhagavān Vaikuṇṭha (vaikuṇṭha-mūrtayaḥ)."

॥ ३.१५ ॥ श्रीब्रह्मा देवान् ॥ १० ॥

Commentary by SND

Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī says that after death those who attained mukti by bhagavat-sākṣātkāra ascend to Vaikuṇṭha and are awarded a suitable spiritual body. In Vaikuṇṭha there are many spiritual bodies decorating it like paintings on the wall of a house. These bodies are spiritual since nothing is material in Vaikuṇṭha, but they remain in an inactive state. When a jīvan-mukta gives up the present material body, Bhagavān assigns to them a suitable body from Vaikuṇṭha. This is the eternal body of that liberated person, which is called the siddha-svarūpa, siddha-deha or pārṣada-deha. These bodies are eternal; they were never created; they have existed without any beginning and will never come to an end. The constitutional position of each jīva is to be a servant of Bhagavān. Therefore, whenever one wants to turn his awareness towards Bhagavān he becomes qualified to get a spiritual form. But that form is granted only when one has relinquished the present material body.

Performing mental service with the siddha-deha is the specialty of the Gauḍīya sampradāya. Śrī Rūpa Gosvāmī recommends that one should practice performing service with both the external sādhaka body and the mentally conceived siddha body. When one takes shelter of a qualified guru and performs service without any ulterior motive or separatist mentality, and the guru is pleased with him or her, then Bhagavān reveals the siddha-deha to such a disciple in the heart of the guru. The guru then reveals it to the disciple who thenceforth practices serving Bhagavān in this form while meditating on the nitya-līlā.

Some people propagate that our siddha-deha is inside us in a dormant state. Every jīva already has a siddha-deha in it. It is not something that is given from outside. Such a view is not supported by Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī or ultimately by Śrīmad Bhāgavatam.

In the next anuccheda Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī gives an example of attaining siddha-deha.

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The priya-narma-sakhā cowherd boys are Kṛṣṇa’s most intimate friends, and they also directly assist in arranging these very intimate affairs. There is nothing they don’t know or understand about these highly confidential matters. From Ujjvala-nīlamaṇi:

The priya-narma-sakha knows the most intimate pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, covets the desire for Kṛṣṇa meeting the gopīs, and is the best among all the dear friends of Kṛṣṇa. In Gokula, Subala and Arjuna are priya-narma-sakhās. UN, 2.13

Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary:

The priya-narma-sakhās have the desire that Kṛṣṇa and the gopīs meet each other. That is the meaning of their sakhī-bhāva. By this, their masculine sentiments are covered.

The rati of the narma-vayasyas (priya-narma-sakhās) extends to anurāga, but among them, Subala’s rati extends to bhāva (mahā-bhāva). UN, 14.233

From Rupa Gosvami’s Radha-krsna-ganoddesa-dipika:

There are no confidential topics whatsoever about which these priya-narma-sakhas do not know. RKGD, 42

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The tatastha-sakti jivas are not comprised of sandini, because that is also a component of the svarupa-sakti, which cannot be covered.

The tatastha-sakti jivas are a different category of sakti, and the sat-cit-ananda aspects of the jiva's svarupa are more related with those aspects of Brahman, more so than the svarupa-sakti, although they appear similar.

The tatastha-sakti jivas can be infused by the svarupa-sakti and that makes them fully eligible to enter the spiritual world - bhauma-lila first of course.

Krsna alone bestows bhava-bhakti, at which time, one's desired identity, form, and relationship with Krsna, Radha, and whomever one has followed - all manifest by the power of the svarupa-sakti.

Bhakti (bhāva) is rarely obtained:

Bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways: if undertaken in great quantity but without attachment, bhakti cannot be attained even after a long time, and even if practiced with attachment, Kṛṣṇa does not give bhakti (bhava) to the practitioner immediately. BRS, 1.1.35

Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

By doing all practices through all stages starting with śraddhā, but without attaining āsakti (deep attachment), bhāva-bhakti cannot be attained. That is because it is stated that rati or bhāva appears only after āsakti. However, even with all sādhana and āsakti, the Lord does not quickly give bhāva-bhakti. He does give bhāva, but after a delay. In this way, bhāva-bhakti is difficult to attain in two ways.

Sandini is described as having certain functions, eg: maintaining the existence of the spiritual realms - I'm going from memory so don't quote me on this one yet. 😉

As such, it doesn't have a direct role like hladini-sakti in the context of the jivas attaining svarupa-siddhi.

If you really want to dive deep into the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas, then you can read the fourth section of the Vedanta-sutras, or Jiva Gosvami's, Paramatma-sandarbha, which has an extensive section on that topic.

Here's a sample. These are excerpts from Jiva Gosvami’s Paramatma-sandarbha, starting with Anuccheda 19, where he discusses the svarupa of the jiva in detail. First, quoting from the Padma-purana, Uttara-khanda, 6.226.34-35:

The jiva is the shelter of knowledge, has the quality of knowledge, is conscious and beyond prakrti. It has no birth and no change. It has its own individual form.

The jiva is small, eternal, and spreads out. it has knowledge and bliss, and the sense of “I”. It does not decrease, is the knower of the body, and is different from other jivas eternally.

Then quoting from Jamatr Muni:

The jiva is consciousness-giving, spreads through the body, and is made of knowledge and bliss. Each jiva has its own identity, and is separate from other jivas. It is very small and eternally pure.

Jiva Gosvami continues: The jiva is eka-rupah svarupa-bhak. (it has its own form). Sruti says:

Just as a mass of salt has no interior or exterior but completely consists of taste [salt], so the atma has no interior or exterior but completely consists of concentrated knowledge. Brihad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.5.13

Atma is aham arthah (it has the sense of “I”). This refutes the idea that atma is happiness alone. It was previously proved that though atma is knowledge itself, it is also a knower. This cannot take place unless there is awareness of “I”. What was previously concluded is repeated by this statement to make it clear.

This sense of “I” is different in each atma.

From Anuccheda 32:

Since it has been proven that the sense of “I” belongs to the jiva’s svarupa, it is also proved that this identity is different in each jiva.

From Anuccheda 33:

Another reason is given for the jivas being different. They are anu. Anu means atomic. This means that though they are located in different places, they cannot be divided further. The paramanu is the limit of division into parts. This particle gives consciousness to the whole body because of a special power, just as a small amount of medicine in an ointment form placed on the head has the power to spread nourishment through the whole body, or just as a magnet has power to move iron.

Suksmanam apy aham jivah: of subtle things I am the jiva. (SB, 11.16.11) This means that the jiva is the limit of smallness. It is not subtle in the sense of being difficult to know.

After the jiva as a knower has been established, the jiva is established as a doer. It is not natural that an unconscious object can be a doer. Being a doer is also observed to be the equivalent of consciousness. It is a quality of the jiva. The action seen in an unconscious object arises by relationship with the antaryami or from control of a jiva.

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RASA IS DERIVED/CHOSEN, NOT INHERENT/PREDETERMINED

Srila Prabhupada in Back to Godhead, vol. 3, part 17, April 15, 1960

Interestingly, this was written in 1960, long before Srila Prabhupada started to preach to Western audiences.

Very, very interesting. What about the general accepted understanding that all living entities have an eternal spiritual rasa with Krsna which is already extant and is uncovered by pure Bhakti? Or, is it possible that we can change our rasas vis-a-vis Krsna?

Responder1 sem

Uttamasloka Dasa

That 'accepted understanding' was our neophyte misunderstanding due to lack of all the details from sastra and the previous acaryas. Srila Prabhupada had to preach to the masses globally and it is a much more powerful approach to say that love of God is already there and it just has to be uncovered.

The full details of the svarupa of the tatastha-sakti jivas are delineated in the fourth section of the Vedanta-sutras and Jiva Gosvami further elaborates on these details in a major portion of his Paramatma-sandarbha. Every aspect of the jiva's svarupa is examined and discussed.

You will not find any mention of a pre-existing relationship with Krsna in one of His lilas in either of those books. Not even close. It is always explained as being one's choice, and that choice is refined over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga and sadhana.

One’s attraction to a particular rasa is a result of impressions (samskaras) over many lifetimes from sadhana and sadhu-sanga. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu. If one's relationship was inherent, this would have been the place for the acaryas to explain that, but they did not say any such thing. This is what they wrote:

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:

Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

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Ananda Svarupa Dasa

Uttamasloka Dasa Thank you for taking the trouble to explain so authoritatively. Could we say that if a jiva is in Vaikuntha having a dasya relationship with Lord Visnu, he could, by Krsna's arrangement, take birth in gokula Vrindavan as a cowherd boy and then his rasa would be changed to sakhya?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Ananda Svarupa Dasa You could 'say' that, but you won't find any evidence in sastra or from the previous acaryas to support that idea. It doesn't happen like that. Everyone is fully satisfied with the relationship they have and they don't aspire for any other - it was their intense desire.

And the other thing is that Vraja lila is not manifest in Vaikuntha so no one there would have access to it, and thus become attracted. Have you read the second half of Sanatana Gosvami's, Brihad-bhagavatamrita?

Nārada explains to Gopa-kumāra in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta:

According to the way one worships, the Lord awards different results. One who thus reaches the goal he has pursued never feels discontent. BB, 2.4.189

Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:

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Ananda Svarupa Dasa

OK. Makes sense. Thanks.

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Ananda Svarupa Dasa

However, Laksmi Devi in Vaikuntha wanted to become a gopi and practiced many austerities to achieve that position. We know she was unsuccessful but she was in Vaikuntha and wanter to go to Goloka. How do we explain that pastime?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Ananda Svarupa Dasa Laksmi is an expansion of Radha. You're talking about a very high level of lila that is way beyond the tatastha-sakti jivas. That does not apply to jivas. This was a special lila. It is not the norm for other jivas.

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Ananda Svarupa Dasa

Last question. How to explain the famous CC verse, nitya siddha krsna bhakti sadhya kabu nay/ sravanadi suddha citte karay uday, which has been explained by Srila Prabhupada, as far as I can understand, that our relationship with Krsna is eternal and already there in our heart and will be manifested by the process cleansing the heart. Does this not seem at odds to the explanation that our rasa will be manifested by our intense desire only?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Ananda Svarupa Dasa It only sounds at odds when you don't understand the whole picture and everything in proper context. Most devotees have not seriously studied Srila Prabhupada's books or the books of the previous acaryas and thus, they are dealing with a 'poor fund of knowledge'.

I have explained the meaning of that verse by showing how Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explained it. Jiva Gosvami is the authoritative voice on this subject as you will see...

https://raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/.../bhakti-inherent...

Hari Parsada - Is Bhakti inherent in the jiva? | Forum

RAGANUGABHAKTI.FREEFORUMS.NET

Hari Parsada - Is Bhakti inherent in the jiva? | Forum

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Edith Best

Prabhu, you may be thinking in terms of material time and material causality. Yes, rasa is the choice of the soul, a point that Srila Prabhupada makes over and over and over again.

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Uttamasloka Dasa

No, there is no thinking in terms of material time or causality.

None of the acaryas have made a point of that. Did you read my responses to Hari Parsada's presentation? Everything is there from guru, sadhu and sastra - unambiguous, no spin required, no adjustments of time or causality. In other words, there's no need for spin or speculation.

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Edith Best

Uttamasloka Dasa yeah I read it

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Jim McRae

As the chair of the GBC Sastric Advisory Council, I'd be interested to see which understanding of this tattva Edith Best thinks is correct 🙂 Surely such an esteemed body would have a take on it.

Then again, since Hari Parshad das is also a SAC member, maybe his position is really the official ISKCON line on this particular topic.

Since we now have two members of this body commenting on the subject, maybe they should clarify their official position on it.

Who is right? Who has the right understanding? "Inert" rasa-specific tailored spiritual bodies ready and waiting in Goloka Vrndavana for the jiva? Or not? Both cannot be correct. Or will the entire subject be officially deemed "unreconcilable" (a term often used as a cop out:)?

The outcome of this discussion has some significant implications, which have also yet to be discussed.

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Edith Best

Jim McRae SAC has not been requested by the GBC to research this issue and so has absolutely no official position on it. An article by SAC member Gopinathacarya should be published soon in ICJ and I expect that to be one of the most excellent contributions to the topic, although it will certainly represent his own research and not the work of the SAC.

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Jim McRae

Edith Best Ok, so we may soon hear someone else's position on it. but what is your own opinion? Do you believe that there are bodies "waiting to be inhabited" in Goloka Vrndavana? What's your verdict after weighing the sastric evidence? I'd be interested to hear it. You seem to be at least a little involved in the topic so far.

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Edwin van den Schoor

Jim McRae bodies waiting to be inhabited. Strange way of putting it. The soul eternally has its own free choice. I find that very essential and interesting in regard of our lost relationship 🤔🧐💥💥💥

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Jim McRae

Edwin van den Schoor That's not my take, that's what people like HP are proposing, in an unsubstantiated manner.

The simple fact is that everything in Goloka Vrndavana is ALREADY fully conscious. Everything there is A PERSON already.

IMO, their reading of that PS verse is wrong.

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Edith Best: I gave a perfect example of the direct evidence above from Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu.

Jiva Gosvami asks what determines what type of rati/rasa one focuses on? This would be the perfect place for Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura to state that one's relationship is inherent within one's svarupa and it will simply awaken over time. But they did not say that. Not even close.

They said it was developed over many lifetimes of sadhu-sanga and sadhana.

And in my response to HP, I explained the nitya-siddha Krsna prema verse correctly according to Rupa Gosvami, Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Did you read my responses?

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Damayanti Dasi

So, if the Supreme Lord knows what the jiva ultimately wants and helps the jiva along the path with getting Sadhu Sanga and Guru shiksha and diksha, and reveals to the aspirant something of His name, form, abode, and perhaps the rasa the jiva most wants, before she can even do the raganuga Bhakti practice what does that mean?

If in one lifetime, the jiva only progresses to Paramatta realization but her future is to be a Vraja vasi in a particular rasa, would she not be given sayujya mukti but instead more births to develop further?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Damayanti Dasi Krsna doesn't reveal any names or forms or anything else. That's not how it works. It's not predetermined. All of that comes directly from the jiva and it is a dynamic process of discovery and awakening choices. The jiva is not blindly following some predetermined outcome even though Krsna may know the future.

It is the jiva's desires that are unfolding and Krsna is simply the facilitator to help fulfill those blossoming desires.

And it's not necessarily that we have to go through all stages either, ie: sayujya, Paramatma realization, etc. That is not a given.

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Damayanti Dasi

Uttamasloka Dasa Yes blindly following a plan would not awaken the desire to know and development to Prema which is taking many lifetimes. But what is the role of Bhakti Devi or how some are describing the descent of Swarupa Shakti on the Chitta? Is that the way it happens? So all is based on the jiva's desire, meeting the devotees, hearing from Guru, and the seed of Bhakti given and we call this Krishna's causeless mercy.

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Damayanti Dasi

Uttamasloka Dasa And lalasa is the crucial element. All the other philosophies have a diminishment of lalasa. Only Raganuga Bhakti gets you to Bhava Bhakti in Vraja

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Damayanti Dasi <Yes blindly following a plan would not awaken the desire to know and development to Prema which is taking many lifetimes.>

And that is also not the basis for love - prema. Love is a gift given freely and fully from the hearts of those who exchange love.

By this time, Bhakti-devi has already been involved for a long time. The bottom line is that bhakti has to come directly from our hearts to attract and compel Krsna. We get the seed from Bhakti-devi, but the rest is up to us to develop and mature, ie: our desires and focus.

The stage of asakti comes right before bhava-bhakti, and at that point, when Krsna decides to bless one with attaining bhava-bhakti, also known as svarupa-siddhi, the details of transformations within one's citta, etc, all happen in ways that are not our concern. We are under the control of the svarupa-sakti at that point, so we're in good hands and don't have to be concerned with technicalities.

It's Krsna's and His devotees' causeless mercy. Krsna makes arrangements according to our desires and that's mercy, but the mercy of bhakti comes from devotees.

Here's a relevant reference from the Vedanta-sutras, with commentary by Baladeva Vidyabhusana:

VS, 3.3.29

Sutra: By the will of the Lord, both paths of bhakti exist. There is no confusion about method, because of scriptural statements concerning both paths.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:

The word na (not) is understood from sutra 3.3.22. Both types of bhakti exist for jivas of either type, because of the will of the Lord, arising by association with devotees of these types. Thus, it is not true that it is impossible to have advancement. Why? Because permission is given in statements concerning these two methods.

The meaning is this. Worship of the Lord’s eternal qualities of two types, starting from groups of eternal associates, spreads to the sadhakas like the flow of the Ganga from heaven to earth. When the jivas of this universe get the chance to have devotee association (of one of these two types), the Lord, who relishes bhakti, desires to inspire these persons who have had devotional association to have attraction to His qualities. These jivas follow the Lord by that particular path. The devotees who give mercy to the jivas are understood to be madhyamas.

Therefore, one cannot accuse the Lord of being partial (since the devotee gives the mercy).

VS, 3.3.31:

Now the superiority of ruci-bhakti will be established. The doubt is, which is best, the path of vidhi or the path of ruci?

Sutra: Ruci-bhakti is best because by this one attains the Lord who is most attracted to such devotees, just as the king is most attracted to the citizen who serves with most affection.

Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:

It is better to worship the Lord by the path of ruci for there is a reason for its superiority. Why? Because one attains the Lord with sweet qualities - who has the quality of being devoted to his devotee who is attracted to His sweetness, bringing the Lord under his control.

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Damayanti Dasi <And lalasa is the crucial element.>

Yes. The terms used in Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu are lobha - greed, and laulyam - intense longing. But it must have a specific focus with a solid underlying realization.

That's correct. Only raganuga-bhakti. That's what Lord Caitanya taught - nothing else.

The qualification for rāgānugā-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy (lobha) for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in rāgātmikā-bhakti – is qualified for rāgānugā-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291

Viśvanātha Cakravartī elaborates on this verse after quoting it in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:

If one thinks, “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Kṛṣṇa of His associates, the gopīs in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments. If such impetuses are there (i.e., suitable sanctions or logical arguments), then it cannot be justly called greed.

This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether or not he is qualified for the path of rāgānugā-bhakti. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him. RVC, 1.5

In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains how greed/lobha arises:

There are two causes for the appearance of greed:

(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa

(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee

There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:

(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana

(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika

The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.

It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6

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Dhira Nitai

Uttamasloka Dasa why not starting a series of Zoom talks on this issue? It would be better medium I think and reach more devotees once it is uploaded in YouTube.

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Dhira Nitai I'm not a fan of public video talks and presentations. They have their place and value, but it's not my thing. I'm open to one on one video talks or maybe a small private group.

But I much prefer written exchanges because it's easier for people to participate at their convenience and to revisit and study afterwards. Not so with jumping around videos hit and miss to find what you want. And you don't have to sit and listen to others talk before you say something.

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Carol Citisakti Simpson

My dear Lord, please do whatever you want with me. Just let me stay in the association of your devotees! I think it will be a long time before I will awaken to my eternal relationship with Krishna. Just saying....

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Carol Citisakti Simpson It's all a matter of your desires - nothing more. If you want that, Krsna will help you. Right now - no waiting. And you now know the process, since you've read my book. 😉

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Carol Citisakti Simpson

Thank you, Prabhu! Harer Krishna!

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Damayanti Dasi

I understand the tatastha Shakti tattva and about raganuga Bhakti but why is the experience of becoming Krishna conscious like recovering slowly from amnesia when doing devotional service?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Damayanti Dasi It takes many lifetimes.

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Damayanti Dasi

Speaking from my experience anyway. Is it because maybe some former life I got somewhere in Krishna consciousness but again fell into ignorance?

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Uttamasloka Dasa

Damayanti Dasi Exactly.

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