Uttamasloka Dasa What is the destination and svarupa of someone who dies in Vrndavana but has not yet established a particular relationship with Krsna in Vraja-lila, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya?
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Raseshwari Dasi
Raseshwari Dasi Uttamasloka Dasa What I have understood is that's way it s all about absorption in Vraj dham and in your swarupa. Not a physical thing. You can die in Vrindavan consciousness in any place of the planet. The important thing is to have get that mercy of Dham and sadhu to really have received that impression and longing in your heart and soul.
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Sri Sri
Sri Sri I don't think dying in vrindavan is an instant passport to golokavrindavan. .if I was sure it was I would advise us all to get a gun and have a.mass suicide Jones town syle and be done with all this messy other stuff
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बलदेव बाबा
बलदेव बाबा dying in Braj Dham (as well as any other holy places) - do not generally have to result in going to Goloka or Vaikunta - (for Vaishnavas) I have ask that question - to local Gaudiya Vaishnava leaders - like if you worship Durga, you can't go to Krishnas or Vishnus place - what you will do there? - you are not trained to do the necessary things there, now - Vaishnavas are trained or at least they are on the way to know all the important aspects, so there is a greater chance of being able to make it,
but as I have learned from my Guru Parampara - if you are a qualified candidate - then first you need to go to a place where Krishnas past times are going on - in one of the material universes - to become trained in the finalizing process,
but all others - who are not absolutely qualified - in the one or the other way - will take birth again in Braj
now - there is surely a difference between suicide and death in a "normal" way - suicide is considered to be not helpful for any good results - from the Vedic point of view
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बलदेव बाबा
बलदेव बाबा also - the story circulate (in ISKCON possible the most) that AC Bhaktividanta Swami told - that even animals like monkeys or pigs are going to Vaikunta just by dying in Braj Dham
if he really told that - I am not sure - but local Vaishnavas do not agree with this idea - it makes no sense - only just like unqualified people they take birth there again, and by the mercy of Vaishnavas who live there - they may become blessed - to reach higher standards
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Jagadananda Das
Jagadananda Das There are I suppose numerous possibilities. Typical born Brijbasis already feel some relation with Krishna, even though it may be inchoate. That could suddenly be revealed .
Or, as Baladeva Baba says, it might be just that the process continues in another life.
Death in the Dham is always auspicious and is not the same as dying anywhere else as a sadhaka.
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Vidya Sundar
Vidya Sundar When Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada had heart problems in NY and was thinking to return to Vrindavan to retire, his close godbrother wrote to him that where ever he is is Vrindavan so it does not matter where he dies
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Karolina Prisni Lindqvist
Karolina Prisni Lindqvist The philosophical conclusion is that if you establish a relationship with Krishna, you take birth with Krishna. In light of that, what can leaving your body in a specific geographic location accomplish?
I think there is more to it, than the simplific understanding.
For example, if you leave your gross body, while your subtle siddha body is in Vrindavan, then you also take your next birth there.
To locate your perfected body with you in it, in Vrindavan, is something you do while still in the sadhaka body, not after death.
To do it, you need the help of a guru that is already in Vrindavan, he invites you, how can you otherwise find the way?
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das I was in Vrindavana with Padmalochan das, (our gurubhai) years ago when he was translating 'Mathura Mahatmya', compiled by Rupa Goswami, where it stated that, "even if one just happened to be travelling through Mathura Mandala and died en route, they would obtain Goloka'.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das: But in what rasa?
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Uttamasloka Dasa, I have no idea.
Maybe there are many ways to enter into the divine reality. What rasa did Ajamil obtain?
Didn't Gopa kumara start off as Gopa Kumara, and end up in Goloka as Gopa Kumara?
Many mysteries that may remain mysteries.
What about the demons whom Krishna killed, such as Putana? Did she remain absorbed in the brahmajoyti radiance of baby Krishna? Did the demons have a rasa as an enemy, which then got transmuted into a higher svarupa?
What ultimately happened to Nalakuvera and Manigriva after being freed from their bodies as Arjuna trees, after having Krishna's darshan? Did they just go to heaven?
What about other Krishnaite Vaishnavas who are not Gaudiyas but may have a differing esoteric theology, what is their destiny? Vallabhas, Nimbarkis, Radha Vallabhas and more.
For Gaudiyas there is also a parallel Nitya Navadwip, where one can obtain a svarup for engaging in eternal Gaura Lila.
Narada mentions to Gopa Kumara in Brihadbhagavatamrita that a liberated soul has practically as much freedom as Bhagavan and can be in multible forms in multible dimensions simultaneously. And is therefore known as Bhakta Bhagavan.
The possible possibilities seem endless.
But as I said. I have no idea.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
Yes there are many ways and there are also many divine realities within Vaikuntha, so it depends on one's desired goal.
Goloka, however, is the highest realm and not so easily attainable, which is why Lord Caitanya came to give special, rare mercy by which one can attain entrance into Goloka and even into the highest manifestation of madhurya-rasa. No one can attain that particular goal other than via Lord Caitanya's teachings.
He went to Vaikuntha, and the only rasas there are santa, dasya and in some realms a formal type of sakhya.
Yes. His example is one that no one will be able to follow, given the extent of his journey.
There are some mysteries, but so far the answers to your questions were available.
No. According to Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, Putana attained the position of a nurse in Goloka, but not one of Krsna's nurses.
No, they were demonic jivas, so they had no rasa. According to Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, they entered Krsna's brahmajyoti - Brahman.
That's all the info we have about them, as far as I know.
It is very clear from sastra and the acaryas that one's destination is based on one's desires for a particular form of Krsna (or Visnu) and a particular type of relationship, in whatever lila that form is engaged in.
That is the basic guiding principle - ye yatha mam pradyante. It's all based on our desires.
Yes, Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains in Jaiva-dharma that one can enter either or both lilas simultaneously.
Yes, but that's only for those who are in Vaikuntha. It's not the same for Goloka. Goloka is completely different from the rest of Vaikuntha. Those who enter Vraja-lila have only one focus. That's what is special about that realm.
They are endless, but I hope I answered some of your questions. ;) 🙏
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Nārada explains to Gopa-kumāra in Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta:
According to the way one worships, the Lord awards different results. One who thus reaches the goal he has pursued never feels discontent. BB, 2.4.189
Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
The Personality of Godhead knows everything there is to know. He is also the most merciful giver of charity. Why then doesn’t He give the same supreme happiness to all His devotees? It is because what He gives them depends on their expressed desires.
Then aren’t the devotees dissatisfied who receive happiness that is relatively less? No. When the Supreme Lord reciprocates the love of any of His pure devotees, the devotee is never left feeling incomplete, because everything the devotee wanted the Lord provides.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa As far as automatically attaining both Gaura lila and Vraja lila, that is also not a given for every devotee, since it depends specifically on their desires related to each of these lilas. This is explained by Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva-dharma:
Vrajanātha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed bhaktas of Śrī Gaura-Kiśora (Caitanya Mahāprabhu)?
Bābājī: Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura-Kiśora are non-different in their tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of mādhurya-rasa. However, there is a slight difference between Them because mādhurya-rasa has two prakoṣṭs (chambers). One is the mood of mādhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audārya (magnanimity). Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s svārupa is manifest where mādhurya is prominent, and Śrī Gaurāṅga’s form is manifest where audārya is prominent.
Similarly, the transcendental Vṛndāvana also has two prakoṣṭs (divisions): Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode and Śrī Gaura’s abode. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Kṛṣṇa’s abode are attracted first to mādhurya, and then to audārya.
The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Śrī Gaura’s abode are blissfully absorbed in audārya, and then mādhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other. Those who only worship Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana, only serve Śrī Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa during their period of sādhana serve Śrī Kṛṣṇa on achieving perfection.
However, those who worship the forms of both Śrī Kṛṣṇa and Śrī Gaura during their period of sādhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Śrī Gaura and Śrī Kṛṣṇa is a very confidential secret. JD, Chapter 17
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Uttamasloka Dasa, Wow thanks, those are brilliant answers, but still doesn’t answer your particular question about dying in the Dham without performing some particular type of sadhana related to obtaining one’s svarup.
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Uttamasloka Dasa, when you say Lord Chaitanya’s teachings, do you mean directly by him or the teachings developed by his followers?
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Uttamasloka Dasa, when it mentions devotees having multiple svarups is that only for nittya siddhas?
Does Narada have a svarup in Goloka?
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
Both. It's the same thing. Rupa Gosvami and the other acaryas directly presented what Lord Caitanya taught, and expanded upon it. None of them changed anything, including Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati.
FYI, it's all in my book, systematically presented and very easy to understand. Everything the acaryas have presented regarding raganuga-bhakti, the abhidheya taught by Lord Caitanya for entering Vraja-lila.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
Having multiple forms in Vaikuntha is not exactly the same as having multiple svarupas in two different lilas, as described above from Jaiva-dharma. Having two svarupas, ie: one in Vraja-lila and one in Gaura lila is possible for sadhana siddhas, as confirmed in Jaiva-dharma.
But there is no evidence I've seen to confirm the idea of having two different rasas in Vraja-lila simultaneously. Balarama can do it, but that's a different situation.
I've seen some statements which imply he has a gopi identity in Vraja-lila, but I'm not certain how valid that is.
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das I suppose I meant, where it mentions in Gauraganodesh Dipika, that some associates of Mahaprabhu had a few spiritual identities, maybe not all synonymous with Goloka per se, and if those type of multible svarups were also possible for non Nitya siddhas.
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Some suggest that it is possible to have/obtain both/dual/tri svarups of, say Vatsalya, Sakha and Madhurya rasas in Goloka?
If one's guru is a resident of Goloka and one's adhikhara or grace is to takes one's spiritual birth in Vaikuntha, does the guru manifest in Vaikuntha also?
Or can one only go where one's guru is?
If we have to take birth in a baumya lila first, is our guru there in that particular lila?
Or can there be different manifestations of Guru?
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa Question: Prīti Sandarbha explains that Kṛṣṇa always comes with His specific set of devotees and some of these can also expand like Kṛṣṇa and enter into a qualified jīva of this world (Devaki, Yaśodā, Nanda, Pradyumna etc.). When these jīvas become per…Ver Mais
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa "In order to relish many Lilas (and many different forms of Rasa) Krsna displays many Prakasa forms, each having a separate mentality. Moreover, each Prakasa form (in its own Lila Prakasa) hasn’t a clue about what all of His other Prakasa forms are doi…Ver Mais
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Jagadananda Das
Jagadananda Das Uttamasloka Dasa "Both is the same thing." Well that is my point also for those people who say that Rupa Goswami did not actually teach manjari bhava or siddha pranali or the diksha parampara, etc.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Jagadananda Das: Rupa Gosvami didn't only teach manjari bhava. That is not even emphasized in any way in Ujjvala-nilamani, which is 'the' definitive book about madhurya-rasa.
In Ujjvala-nilamani it is clear from Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's commentaries that one can also aspire to be a priya-sakhi with sama-sneha, by following one of the asta-sakhis.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
The only evidence I've seen for multiple svarupas for sadhana siddhas is the reference from Jaiva-dharma I posted above.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
There is no evidence that I've found, or that I've seen from anyone who claims that sadhana-siddhas can also have multiple rasas in Vraja-lila. No such evidence exists in sastra or the writings of the acaryas. I've carefully studied all of the acaryas' writings.
People who make such claims never support their assertions with solid evidence. Referring to Balarama is not proof. He is a major exception.
Most ISKCON trained devotees have this idea that the diksa-guru is the only one who can help us. Why do you think we are recommended to have many siksa-gurus? It may not be one's diksa-guru who helps one to attain prema. It may be one or more siksa-gurus. So which guru should appear?
If one's guru is in Vraja-lila but one has desires to go to Vaikuntha, then that's where he/she will go, and their guru won't be there because they didn't desire to be in that same lila as their guru.
No. It doesn't matter where one's diksa-guru is. That is not the deciding factor in one's destination. None of the acaryas teach that, nor does sastra. It may be the case for many devotees who are attached like that to their guru, but it's not mandatory because one's siksa-gurus may be more influential in one's life.
Our guru does not have to be there and certainly not in the form we saw. The process of raganuga-bhakti taught by Lord Caitanya does not involve the guru as part of one's rasa with Krsna in Vraja-lila.
One may aspire for a rasa that is different from their diksa-guru and that's perfectly fine. We are not obligated or constrained to only have the same rasa as our diksa-guru. That is not how the process works or was taught.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das: The process of raganuga-bhakti is to follow a Vraja-vasi of one's choice, ie: a Vraja-vasi whose bhava and prema one desires to emulate (in one's unique way of course).
We must develop love for that Vraja-vasi on the level of love for Krsna (but a different type). From Ujjvala-nilamani:
It has previously been explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu that attaining the position of a gopī cannot take place without rāgānugā-bhakti. And without following after the nitya-siddha gopīs, rāgānugā cannot be perfected.
Rāgānugā means to follow after those gopīs who have rāga. Those three types who follow the nitya-siddhas attain perfection like the nitya-siddha gopīs but they exist eternally in a slightly lesser position than the nitya siddha gopīs that they follow.
Having loyalty to the group leaders and their sakhīs, according to their own desires, the three types who follow the parama-preṣṭha-sakhīs with equal affection for Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa become priya-sakhīs with a similar type of affection.
The three types who follow the prāṇa-sakhīs (principal mañjarīs) with more affection for Rādhā become situated eternally as nitya-sakhīs (mañjarīs) with more affection for Rādhā. UN, 8.137, Commentary by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura
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बलदेव बाबा
बलदेव बाबा Uttamasloka Dasa 👏 thank you for your inspiring insights,
you mentioned the term 'baumya-lila' - do you know any writings where it is described - that we have to go there first (if qualified) and what 'baumya lila' means in detail?
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa बलदेव बाबा: Bhauma-lila is Krsna's Vraja-lila as manifested eternally in the material universes, eg: 5,000 years ago. Bhauma means 'earthly'. So the bhauma-lila is the prakata-lila, ie: the lila that is manifest for us to see. Vraja-lila in Goloka in the spiritual world is the aprakata-lila - the unmanifest lila.
Here are some references:
Srila Prabhupada, from Krsna Book:
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on, as we see in the Vṛndāvana līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. KB, Chapter 28, Releasing Nanda Mahārāja from the Clutches of Varuṇa
Srila Prabhupada from Srimad-bhagavatam:
After giving up the body, the devotee who becomes perfect in devotional service enters that particular universe where Lord Rāmacandra or Lord Krishna is engaged in His pastimes. Then, after being trained to serve the Lord in various capacities in that prakaṭa-līlā, the devotee is finally promoted to sanātana-dhāma, the supreme abode in the spiritual world. SB, 9.11.22, purport
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa बलदेव बाबा: Here is a more detailed explanation of this process from Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s, Raga-vartma-candrika:
One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha (the higher stages of prema) and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”
The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’
‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprākata-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.
Therefore, those devotees for whom yogamāyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on, arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhama, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.
Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhumi and siddha bhumi.
Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”
Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.
He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prākata-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.
Therefore, O greatly eager anurāgi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa More references for those who are interested:
May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Śrīmatī Śacī-devī be transcendentally situated in the innermost core of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has descended in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most elevated mellow (rasa) of devotional service, the mellow (rasa) of conjugal love. CC, 1.3.4
[Kṛṣṇa thinks thus] For a long time I have not bestowed unalloyed loving service (prema-bhakti) to Me upon the inhabitants of the world. Without such loving attachment, the existence of the material world is useless. CC, 1.3.14
Everywhere in the world people worship Me according to scriptural injunctions (vaidhi-bhakti). But simply by following such regulative principles (vaidhi-bhakti) one cannot attain the loving sentiments of the devotees in Vrajabhumi. CC, 1.3.15
Knowing My opulences, the whole world looks upon Me with awe and veneration. But devotion made feeble by such reverence does not attract Me. CC, 1.3.16
By performing such regulated devotional service (vaidhi) in awe and veneration, one may go to Vaikuṇṭha and attain the four kinds of liberation. CC, 1.3.17
My plenary portions can establish the principles of religion for each age. No one but Me, however, can bestow the kind of loving service (Vraja-prema) performed by the residents of Vraja. CC, 1.3.26
The Lord’s desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God (prema-rasa), and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction (rāga-marga-bhakti). Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all. CC, 1.4.15-16
From Śrīla Prabhupāda's purport:
These reciprocal exchanges of mellows (rasas) are called rāga-bhakti, or devotional service to the Lord in transcendental rapture. Lord Śrī Kṛṣṇa wants to make known to all the conditioned souls that He is more attracted by rāga-bhakti than vidhi-bhakti, or devotional service under scheduled regulations. …He is also causelessly merciful, and He wants to bestow upon us this privilege of rāga-bhakti.
[Lord Kṛṣṇa thought:] “All the universe is filled with the conception of My majesty, but love weakened by that sense of majesty does not satisfy Me. CC, 1.4.17
If one regards Me as the Supreme Lord and himself as a subordinate, I do not become subservient to his love, nor can it control Me. CC, 1.4.18
In whatever transcendental mellow (bhāva) My devotee worships Me, I reciprocate with him. That is My natural behavior. CC, 1.4.19
If one cherishes pure loving devotion to Me, thinking of Me as his son, his friend or his beloved, regarding himself as great and considering Me his equal or inferior, I become subordinate to him. CC, 1.4.21-22
Then, by hearing about the pure love of the residents of Vraja, devotees will worship Me on the path of spontaneous love (rāga-marga), abandoning all rituals of religiosity and fruitive activity.” CC, 1.4.33
The truth about the preeminence of rāgānugā-bhakti as the primary path taught by Lord Caitanya is thus established conclusively. For further explanations of rāgānugā-bhakti, please refer to Caitanya-caritāmṛta, Madhya-līlā, chapter 8, starting from verse 221:
If one worships the Lord on the path of spontaneous love (rāgānugā-marga) and goes to Vṛndāvana, he receives the shelter of Vrajendra-nandana, the son of Nanda Mahārāja. CC, 2.8.221
From Śrīla Prabhupāda's Purport:
In all, there are sixty-four items listed for the rendering of service unto Kṛṣṇa, and these are the regulative principles enjoined in the śāstras and given by the spiritual master. One has to serve Kṛṣṇa according to these regulative principles, but if one develops spontaneous love for Kṛṣṇa as exhibited in the activities of those who live in Vrajabhumi, one attains the platform of rāgānugā-bhakti. One who has developed this spontaneous love is eligible for elevation to the platform enjoyed by the inhabitants of Vrajabhumi.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa And Madhya-līlā, chapter 22, starting from verse 148:
My dear Sanātana, I have now in detail described devotional service according to the regulative principles (vaidhi-bhakti). Now hear from Me about spontaneous devotional service (rāgānugā-bhakti) and its characteristics. CC, 2.22.148
The original inhabitants of Vṛndāvana are attached to Kṛṣṇa spontaneously in devotional service. Nothing can compare to such spontaneous devotional service, which is called rāgatmika-bhakti. When a devotee follows in the footsteps of the devotees of Vṛndāvana, his devotional service is called rāgānugā-bhakti. CC, 2.22.149
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Here is a short excerpt from Śrīla Prabhupāda's lecture on Śrīmad-Bhagavatam, 1.2.33, Vṛndāvana, 11.12.1972, where he describes the stark difference between vaidhi-bhakti and rāgānugā-bhakti:
So you have to uncover. You have to discover. That discovering process is devotional service. The more you are engaged in devotional service, the more your senses become pure or uncovered. And when it is completely uncovered, without any designation, then you are capable to serve Kṛṣṇa. This is apprenticeship. Vaidhi-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, parā-bhakti, that is rāgānugā-bhakti. This rāgānugā-bhakti, we have to come to after surpassing the vaidhi-bhakti.
In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the śāstric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that… Śāstric process is also regulation, that is required. Without śāstric process you cannot go to that platform. But if we stick to the śāstric process only and do not try to improve ourself… The śāstric process is kaniṣṭha-ādhikāra, lowest stage of devotional service.
If I become satisfied only with these regulative principles for worshiping the Deity in the temple and following the regulative principles daily, but if I have no other idea, then sa bhaktaḥ prākṛtah smṛtaḥ. Prākṛta means on the material platform. Such devotee can fall down at any moment, because he’s on the prākṛta stage. And prākṛta means this guṇamayī, prākrti. It is very strong. So any devotee can fall down if he remains prākṛta-bhakta. So he has to raise himself above this to the madhyama-ādhikāra.
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa "Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too be…Ver Mais
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Prahlādeśa Dāsa: These statements indicate that one's relationship (rasa) with Krsna in Vraja-lila is not inherent or predetermined. It is all based on one's desires and choices.
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa We can see that in the quotes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada they do not mention the followers of Gadadhara Pandita. Why? Because the followers of Gadadhara Pandita are all in Madhurya Rasa.
CC Ādi 12.90 — All the followers of Gadādhara Paṇḍita are considered great devotees because they have Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu as their life and soul.
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa CC Ādi 10, 11 and 12 describe the followers of Sri Caitanya, Sri Nityananda, Sri Advaita and Sri Gadhadara.
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa I'ts very interesting.
From what I can understand, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada explain that devotees of Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality and do…Ver Mais
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Prahlādeśa Dāsa: That may apply to Lord Nityananda (Balarama), but not the others. Where is the direct evidence? I haven't seen any.
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Uttamasloka Dasa.
When you mention siksha guru's, do you mean 'living' in the sense of being contemporary in one's life? Or can that mean any Uttama Vaishnava in the lineage that we get inspiration from?
What if Srila Prabhupada is our diksha guru and also our main siksha guru, because we don't feel drawn to others for various reasons and as we are not convinced they are Uttama Adhikaries. And because Prabhupada is physically not present how does one develop raga bhakti without his personal guidance.
I always assumed that the relationship with one's guru either diksha or siksha is eternal and essential in the blossoming of one's rasa.
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Maybe our svarup and rasa 'is' inherent and the process of bhakti just helps uncover the diamond that has been covered, and guru just guides the disciple in that process of discovery through the directions of Krishna within the hearts of both guru and disciple. I thought that is what is being described in Jaiva Dharma. The Guru is not dictatorial in the matters of rasa but is certainly a guide.
Where does our 'nature' come from as we didn't create ourselves, we are from the creator. Do we really 'decide' who we are, or are we who we are because we're created that way?
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
It can, and should be both. All of the previous acaryas are our siksa-gurus. Plus, we should seek out devotees who are more advanced on the raga path. They don't have to be uttama-adhikaris either. Advanced madhyamas are just as valuable association. If one is on the path and is rightly situated that's all that matters. I'll post a reference below.
That's fine. You have to follow Krsna's inner guidance. But don't discount the value of advanced madhyama devotees.
Developing, or becoming qualified for raganuga-bhakti does not depend solely on personal guidance from one's diksa-guru. That's why you really need to read my book to understand what Lord Caitanya and the acaryas taught. There are hundreds of pages of details that must be understood, and those additional details are only in the books of the previous acaryas.
It all depends. Which guru? If you don't attain prema this lifetime, who will be your guru next lifetime and will you remember Srila Prabhupada? Do you really think Srila Prabhupada is going to come back for every single disicple, including thousands more each time he appears? And in what identity will he appear? The same exact person?
It doesn't work that way. The guru is the external manifestation of Paramatma, and it could be many devotees. Do you honestly think your opportunity is over this lifetime because Srila Prabhupada is not here to guide you in person? That's not how the process unfolds.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das:
There are no 'maybes'. The facts have been given by the acaryas so there's no need to speculate. I have studied this topic in detail and every acarya concurs that our attraction to any particular rasa is due to association with similar minded devotees over many lifetimes. That's not inherency. It is by influence of other devotees combined with our own desires that are developing, and the will of Krsna.
Because the process of bhakti takes many lifetimes to perfect, we can thus understand that a strong natural attraction towards a specific rasa in one’s current life indicates many saṁskāras associated with that rasa over the course of many previous lives. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das: Continued...
Jiva Gosvami discusses the details of jiva-tattva at length in his Paramatma-sandarbha. That subject is also discussed in similar detail in the Vedanta-sutras with the commentary of Baladeva Vidyabhusana. In neither of those lengthy discussions is there one single statement about inherency of one's rasa. Because that is not the case.
Each tatastha-sakti jiva is exactly the same constitutionally and the differentiating uniqueness of each individual jiva is only manifest in the context of an environment wherein they exert their will and capacity for desire, which in the case of tatastha-sakti jivas, is the material universes.
If a jiva attains the spiritual world they will also attain a suitable spiritual form and identity according to what they desired and meditated upon during their sadhana and bhajana. All of the acaryas teach that. There are so many references. From Narottama Dasa Thakura:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das: Here is a reference from the Vedanta-sutras explaining how the inclination towards particular rasas unfolds for the tatastha-sakti jivas:
VS, 3.3.29
Sometimes ruci-bhakti, using knowledge of His sweetness, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Sometimes vidhi-bhakti, using knowledge of the Lord’s power, is seen as the cause of attaining Him. Which of these is the cause of attaining Him, since the two are different, caused by difference in the object of worship?
Sutra: By the will of the Lord, both paths of bhakti exist. There is no confusion about method, because of scriptural statements concerning both paths.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:
The word na (not) is understood from sutra 3.3.22. Both types of bhakti exist for jivas of either type, because of the will of the Lord, arising by association with devotees of these types. Thus, it is not true that it is impossible to have advancement. Why? Because permission is given in statements concerning these two methods.
The meaning is this. Worship of the Lord’s eternal qualities of two types, starting from groups of eternal associates, spreads to the sadhakas like the flow of the Ganga from heaven to earth.
When the jivas of this universe get the chance to have devotee association (of one of these two types), the Lord, who relishes bhakti, desires to inspire these persons who have had devotional association to have attraction to His qualities. These jivas follow the Lord by that particular path. The devotees who give mercy to the jivas are understood to be madhyamas.
An intermediate or second-class devotee, called madhyama-adhikari, offers his love to the Supreme Lord, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to the ignorant people who are innocent, and disregards those who are envious of the Lord. SB, 11.2.46
Therefore, one cannot accuse the Lord of being partial (since the devotee gives the mercy).
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Mathura Das
Mathura Das Thanks Uttama ji for all of your answers and scriptural references. There's a lot to take in. 🙏
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das 🙏🙏🙏
There's a lot more than that. ;)
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa Well, the quotes from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Srila Prabhupada are very clear. They do not speak only of Lord Nityananda Balarama. The quotes affirm that Sri Nityananda Balarama, Sri Advaita Acarya and all Their followers, although in other Rasas, be…Ver Mais
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Vishnudas Art
Vishnudas Art and that, as they used to say, is the total package, the whole shebang, the full deck, the kit and kaboodle, the whole nine yards, paquete completo!
http://raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/thread/3/link-book
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Uttamasloka Dasa Prahlādeśa Dāsa: Thanks for your kind words of support. I appreciate it. 🙏
Those are all nitya-siddhas as far as we know. And they didn't give us the details as to exactly what that means, ie: did they give up their existing rasa or maintain both?
Agreed.
But entrance into Goloka is a much different consideration that entrance into Vaikuntha. The mindset and mood are completely unique and very different, so the same principles do not necessarily apply.
I haven't seen any support for this idea and the statements yo quoted do not support that idea.
That does not apply to the sadhana-siddhas. He made those statements specifically about Krsna and his expansions - not the tatastha-sakti jivas.
You cannot apply those things to sadhana-siddhas tatastha-sakti jivas. That is not a valid extrapolation. None of the acaryas have said that.
There is no evidence to support this idea. None. The statements you quoted do not state that at all. Sadhana-siddhas can only cultivate one rasa. Period. That doesn't change when they attain Vraja-lila because they did not desire that. Krsna only reveals himself according to the devotee's desires. Here is confirming evidence from the Vedanta-sutras:
VS, 3.3.56:
In statements like either kratuh (Chandogya Upanisad 3.14.1) worship of the Lord with sweet and majestic qualities was described. Taking association of devotees with these bhavas, by the will of the Lord, the jivas develop inclinations to either sweet or majestic qualities of the Lord, and then attain Him and see His form endowed with those particular qualities. This was shown in sutra 3.3.29.
Sutra: The devotee does not see the Lord with other qualities, because the Lord responds to the bhava of the devotee, just as knowledge of one form brings realization of that particular form.
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s Commentary:
The word tu destroys the doubt. The form realized is not one with additional qualities. Why? Because the Lord has the quality of revealing a form with the qualities corresponding to those employed by the meditator. What was indicated in the meditation will be attained in liberation. Having known an object in a particular way and meditating on it, one sees that particular object in liberation. Though the knowers of the Lord are aware that he has other qualities, those other qualities do not manifest when they see Him, since they did not meditate on those qualities. In this way there is no contradiction to the statement either kratuh.
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Uttamasloka Dasa Mathura Das: I just got this info from our godbrother, Dulal Chandra Dasa:
Nalakuvera and Manigriva appeared in Vraja as Madhukantha and Snigdhakantha, the two bards, in Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī Gopala-campu. Swami Tripurari mentioned this in a recent class he gave here at Saragrahi. Not sure of his pramāṇa in this regard.
Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Being nitya-siddhas, they can not give up an existing rasa. This is an eternal relationship. The only option left is that they kept both at the same time, simultaneously in separate svarupas. This is very clear.
All siddhas can expand, no matter whether nitya-siddha or sadhana-siddha. Because siddhas are ... siddhas.
Yes, a sadhana-siddha only obtains what he meditated during the sadhana. And during the sadhana it is only possible to meditate in a single rasa, whatever it may be. At the same time the Sadhaka appreciates, revere and also meditates on the activities of Lord Caitanya in His mood of madhurya-rasa.
This in relation to the nitya-siddhas:
"But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still there is only one spirit soul who is Arjuna. This spirit soul expands into many different bodies and thus you can understand that there are also incarnations of devotees as well as incarnations of Krishna. This is the power of the spirit soul, that it is unlimited. Such conception cannot be understood while one is still in the conditioned state."
Letter of Srila Prabhupada to Saradiya, 1968"
And this in relation to the saddhana-siddhas:
Vedanta-sutra Adhyaya 4, Pada 4 explains about the Glories of the Liberated Souls
In commentary on Sutra 4.4.10, Baladeva Vidyabhusana cites Badari Muni and Chandogya Upanisad [8.12.1] that the liberated soul has no body.
In the commentary on Sutra 4.4.11, BV cites Jaimini Muni and Chandogya Upanisad [7.26.2] where is said that the liberated soul can manifest many different bodies simultaneously:
"He becomes one. Then he becomes two. Then three. Then five. Then seven. Then nine. Then eleven. He becomes one hundred and ten. He becomes one thousand and twenty."
BV then says: "Because the individual spirit soul is atomic in nature, it cannot expand itself to become many different bodies, so these bodies must be possessions of the atomic soul. Nor can it be said that this statement of the Upanisad is not true, for this is in a passage describing the process of liberation. The body described here must actually exist, and also it must NOT have been created by past KARMIC reactions."
Sutra 4.4.12 gives Vyasadeva's conclusion that both Badari and Jaimini are correct.
BV says: "Lord Vyasadeva thinks that because the liberated soul's every desire is at once fulfilled both conditions must be true. This is so because statements describing both conditions are found in the scriptures. Therefore it should be accepted that the liberated soul may have a body, and again he may not have a body."
It is very important to note here that the simultaneous bodies mentioned in this passage, which liberated soul wishes to have, are not material bodies as some wrongly say.
Because, as BV says, these bodies must NOT have been created by past karmic reactions. They are spiritual bodies that a liberated soul, mukta jiva, sadhana-siddha can simultaneously manifest by its immense power.
The Vedanta-sutra explains that a liberated soul, mukta jiva, saddhana-siddha can not create only a material universe, anything else it can.
For a liberated soul, mukta jiva, saddhana-siddha to manifest several spiritual bodies simultaneously is a piece of cake.
Also regarding nitya-siddhas:
"Q. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, in identifying certain personalities with their counterparts in Krsna lila, it is mentioned that a particular personality in Caitanya lila corresponds to two different personalities in Krsna lila. I don't understand. Do spiritual personalities merge and split, combine and recombine?
A. by Swami Tripurari - Liberated souls can have two or more spiritual identities. However, many of the descriptions of Kavi Karnapura in his Gaura gonnodesa dipika involve tracing similar sentiments (bhava) in one associate of Mahaprabhu with those of two or more members of Krsna lila, and this at perhaps different times. This does not necessarily mean that the associate of Mahaprabhu is in fact those two souls of Krsna lila appearing as one in Gaura lila, ALTHOUGH THIS POSSIBILITY DOES EXIST." (caps lock mine)
VS states that these liberated souls are manifesting spiritual bodies (there is no past Karma). Can you please explain the difference between "spiritual body" and "svarupa"?
Where in VS is it said that "those are liberated jivas who are still in the material universe manifesting those bodies"?
What is the Sastric reference to this?
In relation to nitya-siddhas:
If we say that only in Vaikuntha is it possible to have different forms because it is the same Bhava, and because in Vraja-lila there are different Bhavas it is not possible ... no because
Again:
"In order to relish many Lilas (and many different forms of Rasa) Krsna displays many Prakasa forms, each having a separate mentality. Moreover, each Prakasa form (in its own Lila Prakasa) hasn’t a clue about what all of His other Prakasa forms are doing. Yet similarly, because Krsna’s Nitya Parikaras are His Cid-sakti, they also manifest many Prakasa forms, each having a separate mentality. So as a Bhakta’s various Prakasa forms serve in Krsna’s various Lila Prakasa, none of those Prakasa forms know about what all of the others are doing either !!!"
(Sri Jiva Gosvami - Krsna Sandarbha – Anuccheda 156.8)
There would be disturbance and rasabhasa if all these svarupas simultaneously were aware of what the other is doing. They are not.
Sri Jiva Gosvami, in Krsna Sandarbha – Anuccheda 156.8 makes it clear that "A Bhakta’s various Prakasa forms serve in Krsna’s various Lila Prakasa." AND "none of those Bhakta’s various Prakasa forms know about what all of the others are doing."
So ...
There is no disturbance in Vraja-lila. Why? Because "none of those Prakasa forms know about what all of the others are doing." Krsna Sandarbha is very clear.
It is not only in Vaikuntha, with the same bhava, that the devotees can expand. In Vraja-lila they can also expand.
Why?
Because "A Bhakta’s various Prakasa forms serve in Krsna’s various Lila Prakasa." AND "none of those Bhakta’s various Prakasa forms know about what all of the others are doing."
And so we have that gaudiyas can have two svarupas in krsna-lila:
"Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Anubhasya CC Adi 7-17)
"Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are very much attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."
(Srila Prabhupada - Teachings of Lord Caitanya 17)
In relation to the sadhana-siddhas:
We have already seen, according to VS, that a liberated soul, mukta jiva, saddhana-siddha has immense power and can have several spiritual bodies simultaneously.
We have also seen that a mukta-jiva achieves only what he cultivated during sadhana. And that in sadhana it is only possible to cultivate a single rasa.
Those devotees who during the sadhana cultivate or parental love, or fraternity, or servitude, BUT because they also develop a great attachment to Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they also become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love and mercifully (Krpa) attain ALSO a svarupa in madhurya-lila even though they have not cultivated all the details during the sadhana.
In general, sadhakas gaudiya are not absorbed only in krsna-lila. But in krsna-lila and gaura-lila simultaneously.
Yes, this is correct. Expansions of the same persons and their same rasas. The example given here in the Sandarbha is from Uddhava. He expands like several "Uddhavas".
Yes, I understand this. But the main point of presenting this quote from Jiva Gosvami of Krsna Sandarbha is to show that a Svarupa has no idea what the other Svarupa is doing. That is the point.
Regarding "more or less":
In the SP quote that says:
"Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship ..."
It would seem that "more or less" is saying that these devotees would not be fixed (sthayi bhava) in these relationships and could change.
But it's not the case.
Because SP says they are "pure devotees." Nitya siddhas have eternal relationships that do not change.
Here the complete quote from SP and SBST
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhashya:
“There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally HAVE relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they TOO become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
SBST says they "HAVE relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality" AND "when such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they TOO become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
It's very clear. Here "TOO" indicates without a doubt that they do not abandon the other relationship.
Srila Prabhupada, Teachings of Lord Caitanya ch. 17:
"There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."
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Before reading the following verses we must understand that Kavi Karnapura's Caitanya Candrodaya Nataka is an authorised work of Gaudiya Vaishnavism and accepted by all.
At the end of Kavi Karnapura's Caitanya Candrodaya Nataka:
280
"So be it. I will go to Vrndavana and there I will accept you as My associates and with My sweet pastimes I will fill your hearts with bliss. To
you who have faith in Vrndavana I will give splendid spiritual forms like My own. That is what I will do for you."
281
"Those of you whose hearts are bound to Me in this form of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, even if your rasas are friendship or servitude to Sri Sri Radha Madhava or Lord Dvarakadhisa, or if your rasas are friendship or servitude to any of My other incarnations, I will make into My eternally liberated associates in Goloka Vrndavana."
Text 282
"Advaita Acarya: So be it. By Your desire may You give us all different eternal forms and different eternal residences. We will eternally remember Your wonderful transcendental pastimes."
Jagadananda Das Prahlādeśa Dāsa That is interesting. CCN was written four years after GGD. So KK's Chaitanya is confirming that doctrine, which was accepted by Narottam et al at Kheturi a few years later.
My friend Gadadhar Pran is a big believer in the multiplicity of svarupas. He says we have a right to at least three. Manjari in the kunj, brahman svarup in Mahaprabhu lila, and a nagari form for the intimate Mahaprabhu lila.
There is no restriction on bodies in the spiritual world as there is here, because there is no distinction between spiritual body and spiritual mind. Since the body is always a creation of mind, even in the material world, the same function works with the immediate speed of thought.
Thought the capacity to participate in numerous lilas simultaneously in different moods is possible, generally speaking one's nishtha is in one form or another. Most sadhakas nowadays spend a short time in Gaura lila as a young brahmin and then spend 99% of their smarana in Braj.
Swami Tripurari Prahlādeśa Dāsa Here is what Mahaprabhu actually says says through the pen of Kavi Karnapura:
"Residing in Vṛndā’s woods in perpetual joy, I will personally make your mind inescapably caught in the current of bliss with thoughts that gleam with rasa. You all who are intent only on Vṛndā’s woods I will grant bodies appropriate to your desire.That is the great task that still awaits me. That is what I will accomplish. Moreover, Some are in servitude, some dear ones are in friendship, those devoted to Rādhā and Mādhava are in both, a few in friendship and so on with the king of Śrī Dvārakā. Some [have devotion] for both [the king of Dvārakā and Rādhā‐Mādhava] while others have [that] for other descents. Let me make all whose hearts are fixed on me cling to Vṛndāvana.”
These are the original verses:
śrī-kṛṣṇa-caitanyaḥ : evam eva—
vṛndāraṇyāntarasthaḥ sarasa-vilasitenātmanātmanam uccair
ānanda-syanda-vandīkṛta-manasam urīkṛtya nitya-pramodaḥ |
vṛndāraṇyaika-niṣṭhān svaruci-sama-tanūn kārayiṣyāmi yuṣmān ity evo’ste’vaśiṣṭaṁ kim api mama mahat karma tac cātaniṣye ||72||
api ca—
dāsye kecana kecana praṇayinaḥ sakhyaika evobhaye
rādhā-mādhava-naiṣṭhikāḥ katipaye śrī-dvārakādhīśituḥ |
sakhyādāv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vāvatārāntare
mayy ābaddha-hṛdo’khilān vitanavai vṛndāvanāsaṅginaḥ ||73||
advaitaḥ : tathāstu—
nijecchayā prāpaya yad yad eva
sthalāntaraṁ no vapur antaraṁ vā |
tavaitad āścarya-caritram eva
jātismarā eva ciraṁ smarāmaḥ ||74|
Swami Tripurari, please, what is your translation for the latter?
advaitaḥ : tathāstu—
nijecchayā prāpaya yad yad eva
sthalāntaraṁ no vapur antaraṁ vā |
tavaitad āścarya-caritram eva
jātismarā eva ciraṁ smarāmaḥ ||74|
"Advaita Acarya: So be it. By Your desire may You give us all different eternal forms and different eternal residences. We will eternally remember Your wonderful transcendental pastimes."
I think it's clear here:
"The devotee question was
The idea that a sadhaka who has attained his or her ideal in the Vraja lila may at some point change rasas is not explained in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu or any where else. The very idea is questionable at best because each devotee is fully satisfied with the prema he or she attains. Their sthayi bhava is the basis of their experience of rasa and the stahyi bhava is not transient like sancari bhavas are. So how will one change one’s sthayi bhava, the dominant emotion that is the very basis of one’s spiritual existence? And why would one want to to? The clear teaching is that no such desire for change has scope for arising. Indeed from the perspective of one’s developed sthayi bhava in rasa one does not see that other rasas are better or more desirable, but rather that one has attained the best possible ideal.
Advaita Das: Yes it is correct.
Devotee: If it is right then it contradicts the theory of multiple swarupas of Gour parshads . isn’t it ? It is true sthayi bhava does not change , But how to harmonise with multiple swarupas like of Advaita acharya and other gour parshads who have manjari swarupa in addition ? How can Śrīla Kavi Karṇapūra’s Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya, a bonafide scripture be wrong ?
Advaita Das: No it does not contradict, the multiple swarups are all eternal. they do not change from one sthayi bhav to another
Devotee: You mean they are from beginningless time ?
Advaita Das: Yes
Devotee: Then how does the special mercy of Gourchandra stands valid ?
Advaita Das: There are sadhaks and siddhas.The mercy is given to sadhaks so they can start bhakti.
Devotee: I quoted from Śrīla Kavi Karṇapūra’s Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya act 10 text 280 -282 to him.
Advaita Das: Yes that is for sadhaks
Devotee: But Mahaprabhu seems to bestow his mercy to siddhas here.
Advaita Das: No No. He’s making a philosophical point here only.Just for an example yudhisthir gambled away his wife, though he was siddha only to teach us something. this is only teaching, like a lila."
No. That's not what I'm saying and I'm sorry if this was what it seemed.
What I'm saying is that the multiple swarupas are all ETERNAL.
For example, Sri Dhananjaya Pandita. He is Vasudama Sakha in sakhya-rasa and Sri Madana Manjari in madhurya-rasa. And it was always like that. There was no beginning.
And it has always been so, because the pastimes and mercy of Caitanya (Krsna in the conjugal mood of Radha) ... also has no beginning
Yes, some may accept this, others may not.
What interests me the most here is that I just do not find much of a difference between your translation and the one I presented from Caitanya candrodaya nataka.
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Prahlādeśa Dāsa
Prahlādeśa Dāsa For example, followers of Advaita Parivara worship Advaita Acarya as Visakha Sakhi and Rati Manjari. And there are many other examples of many other lineages. Whether someone accepts this or not, it's another conversation.
Here what interests me is the Caitanya candrodaya nataka.
In the verse, Lord Caitanya, quotes His associates, "some are in servitude, some dear ones are in friendship, those devoted to Rādhā and Mādhava are in both, a few in friendship and so on with the king of Śrī Dvārakā. Some [have devotion] for both [the king of Dvārakā and Rādhā‐Mādhava] while others have [that] for other descents."
Then Lord Caitanya says:
"Let me make all whose hearts are FIXED ON ME (even though in other rasas of servitude and friendship to Radha Krsna or other incarnations) cling to Vṛndāvana.”
FIXED ON ME means and implies fixed in the unique mood of Caitanya (Sri Krsna) in the conjugal mood of Radha.
"Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally HAVE relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they TOO become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
(Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Anubhasya CC Adi 7-17)
"Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Sri Nityananda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are very much attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."
(Srila Prabhupada - Teachings of Lord Caitanya 17)
And this occurs eternally, because Krsna-lila and Gaura-lila are eternal and without beginning.
Just one last thing. Mathura Das I forgot to mention about your question.
Yes, Narada - Madhumangala - Naradi Gopi are eternal forms.
Yes, Gopesvara Siva - Gopisvara Mahadeva are eternal forms.
Multiple Svarupas. Multiple Rasas. In one same Lila !!!
Narada:
According to Nārada, Skanda and Padma Purāṇas, Nārada Muni also has a Gopī form, which he obtained after meditating for a long time.
According to Gopāla-campū, Nārada Muni is also Madhumaṅgala Sakha.
Multiple Svarūpas. Multiple Rasas. In one same Līlā !!!
In addition, Nārada Muni participates in other Līlās. In Vaikuṇṭha as Nārada himself.
Nārada Muni is not Viṣṇu-tattva. He's Sādhana-siddha. And even if we consider that he is Nitya-siddha ... Siddha ... is ... Siddha !!!
The power of a liberated soul (Siddha) is immeasurable and indescribable. This is stated in the Vedānta-sūtra.
Siva:
Once Lord Siva wanted to participate in the Rasa dance exclusive of Sri Krsna, but being male was denied entry. At the suggestion of Lalita Sakhi, Lord Siva bathed in Mana Sarovara, and became a Gopi by joining the Rasa dance. Satisfied with the service of this new Gopi, Sri Krsna gave it the name "Gopisvara". Krsna then asked Siva to protect the Gopis for guarding the entrance to Rasa dance. Lord Siva's duty was to forbid anyone with the Purusa Abhimana (enjoying spirit) to enter Rasa dance. By the grace of Gopisvara Siva a devotee can become free of the enjoyment spirit, and receive the Darshana of the dance of the divine Rasa of Lord Krsna.
Thank you very much again and "hasta la vista"
I just came back not to say that I did not show the references.
;)
Swami Tripurari wrote: Narada Muni is identifed with Madhumangala in the literature of the Vrindavana Goswamis.
There is a covert reference in Cc 2.14.229, where Srivasa, in the mood of Narada, begins to act like Madhumangala after hearing Svarupa Damodara's glorification of Vraja over Vaikuntha.
However, the sastra-yukti of it is clear: Narada is the farcical Brahmin of Vaidhi bhakti. Madhumangala is the farcical brahmin of Raga bhakti. The raga marga Vraja parikaras all have expansions that follow svayam bhagavan in His various lilas."
(Y)
And here are the quotes:
Gopala Campu of Srila Jiva Gosvami.
First chapter (purva campu, 3rd chapter). Verse 72.
ayaṁ ca madhumaṅgala-nāmā snātakaḥ śrī-nārada-prakṛtiḥ |
This boy is Madhumaṅgala, a brāhmaṇa boy. He has a nature equal to Nārada’s.
Also in uttara campu, part 2, chapter 36, verse 42: Madhumaṅgala is Nārada’s counter image with a joking nature.
In another edition:
1.2.34: He was like Narada himself. He was decorated with skill in speaking joking words. His name was Madhumangala. Expertly speaking joking words that touched the heart, he delighted everyone. He was like a great treasure standing by Lord Krishna's side.
1.3.86:
This brahmana boy is named Madhumangala. He is saintly like Narada Muni himself.
;)
Again:
According to Nārada Purāṇa, Skanda Purāṇa and Padma Purāṇa, Nārada Muni also has a Gopī form, which he obtained after meditating for a long time.
According to Gopāla-campū, Nārada Muni is also Madhumaṅgala Sakha.
Multiple Svarūpas. Multiple Rasas. In one same Līlā !!!
In addition, Nārada Muni participates in other Līlās. In Vaikuṇṭha as Nārada himself.
Nārada Muni is not Viṣṇu-tattva. He's Sādhana-siddha. And even if we consider that he is Nitya-siddha ... Siddha ... is ... Siddha !!!
The power of a liberated soul (Siddha) is immeasurable and indescribable. This is stated in the Vedānta-sūtra.
There is no way to be clearer than this.
Finally, now I'm leaving. ;)
See Narada Purana (2.80.9-32), the Skanda Purana (2.6.2-3), and the Padma Purana (4.75.25-46). Narada was instructed to dip in one pond and came out a gopi. Having had that experience, he was told to dip in another and was returned to his male form.
1 - This pastime "happens" in Vrndavana (Bhauma Lila). And the pastimes in Vrndavana (Bhauma-lila) are also eternal.
They occur in one material universe after another.
Narada is constantly assuming a form of Gopi in different Universes.
2 - The Puranas explain: "Narada did as Vrnda Devi had instructed and emerged from the waters as a gopi named Naradi.
THEN he was thus able to see Vrndavana with new eyes and enter into Krsna’s pastimes with the cowherd girls (WITH GOPI SVARUPA)
Later, Vrnda Devi instructed him to bathe in another pond, which came to be known as Narada-kunda, and he resumed his male form."
Although he returned to be Narada Muni later, he stayed a long time as a Gopi. And at this time there were MULTIPLE SVARUPAS in one same Lila.
Yes, because when Narada is a Gopi, Madhumangala does not leave Vrndavana.
