Particular, Particular, Particular
Just came across this in another forum. I am posting it here, because there is the idea being floated around (especially on Dandavats) that desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish and we should just do what Krsna wants us to do. There is also the idea that this service, our form and our relationship will be "revealed" to us at the time of death. Both conceptions are herein dispensed. Note how many times Srila Prabhupada says "particular".
Srila Prabhupada, NOD, Page 75:
In the same Narada-pancaratra, there is another expression of submission, wherein the devotee says, "My dear Lord, O lotus-eyed one, when will that day come when on the bank of the Yamuna I shall become just like a madman and continue to chant Your holy name while incessant tears flow from my eyes?"
This is another perfectional stage. Lord Caitanya also desired that "a moment will appear unto me as twelve years of time, and the whole world will appear to me as vacant on account of not seeing You, my dear Lord." One should feelingly pray and become eager to render his particular type of service to the Lord.
This is the teaching of all great devotees, especially Lord Caitanya. In other words, one should learn how to cry for the Lord. One should learn this small technique, and he should be very eager and actually cry to become engaged in some particular type of service.
This is called laulyam, and such tears are the price for the highest perfection. If one develops this laulyam, or excessive eagerness for meeting and serving the Lord in a particular way, that is the price to enter into the kingdom of God. Otherwise, there is no material calculation for the value of the ticket by which one can enter the kingdom of God. The only price for such entrance is this laulyam lalasamayi, or desire and great eagerness."
Here we see Srila Prabhupada stressing three times "particular service" because we must know what it is:
Forum:
"..most devotees don't understand that they have to discover or realize their relationship with Krsna 'before' they die - not after. Unless you realize your relationship with Krsna and thus become qualified to practice raganuga-bhakti, you cannot enter Vraja lila. Those are the facts."
This is explained as follows:
dvividhah khalu bhavo’tra sadhanabhinivesajah || (brs 1.3.7)
“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other.
Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”
The goals of these two paths of devotion in practice are understood as follows:
vidhi-bhaktye parshada-dehe vaikunthete yaya || (cc 2.24.87)
“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in
Vaikuntha.”
raga-bhaktye vraje svayam-bhagavane paya || (cc 2.24.85)
“Through raga-bhakti, one will attain the Lord Himself in Vraja.”
raganuga-marge tanre bhaje yei jana |
sei-jana paya vraje vrajendra-nandana || (cc 2.8.221)
“He who worships on the path of raganuga will attain Vrajendranandana (Sri Krishna) in Vraja.”
iha haite madhurya durlabha ||
kevala ye raga-marge, bhaje krishne anurage |
tare krishna-madhurya sulabha || (cc 2.21.119)
“Sweetness is very difficult to attain through fruitive activities, austerity, yoga, intellectual
speculation, vidhi-bhakti, recitation of mantras or meditation. The sweetness of Sri Krishna is
easily attainable only for the one who affectionately worships Him on the path of raga.”
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Actually, the general consensus seems to be that it will be revealed 'after' death, not even 'at the time of death'. At death, all you have to do is remember Krsna's name and you'll go to Goloka.
A devotee told me recently that during one class, the speaker said something to the effect that it was going to be exciting to die and wake up in Vrndavana and finally find out who we are - either a desire tree or cow or gopi. !!! I have no idea where this insane notion came from. It's certainly not in sastra or Srila Prabhupada's books or the acaryas' books.
Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, (page 318) what state of realization one must be in at the time of death to be qualified to enter Vraja lila:
As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred to another material body.
Similarly, one who at the time of death *is situated in his pure spiritual identity* thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord and is transferred to the spiritual kingdom, to enter into the association of Kṛṣṇa.
In other words, *the qualification for being transferred to the spiritual kingdom at the time of death is to think, in one’s spiritual identity*, of Kṛṣṇa and His associates. No one can contemplate the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha-deha).
Não gosto · Responder · 5 · Ontem às 7:16
Alexander Shenkar >>desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish and we should just do what Krsna wants us to do. <<
If this line was transcoded, it would read, "desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish because we should surrender to the temple authority and GBC and do what they say."
That's the real purport of the message - in my most humble opinion.
Não gosto · Responder · 5 · Ontem às 7:27 · Editado
Bhaktin Jess "Actually, the general consensus seems to be that it will be revealed 'after' death, not even 'at the time of death'. At death, all you have to do is remember Krsna's name and you'll go to Goloka."
That's what I have heard during some lectures.
I think many use this verse from the Gita to support that claim:
Chapter 8, Verse 5.
And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.
Many equate "Remembering Me" to remembering His names...
But then, it makes me wonder in Verse 6 where it says:
Chapter 8, Verse 6.
Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.
Perhaps "state of being" would translate to one's spiritual identity?
In the purport of that verse, among other things, Srila Prabhupada writes:
"If one is transcendentally absorbed in Kṛṣṇa’s service, then his next body will be transcendental (spiritual), not material. Therefore the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare is the best process for successfully changing one’s state of being at the end of one’s life."
I could see how that purport could be seen in two different ways. "If one is transcendentally absorbed in Krsna's service" could support the idea of realizing one's spiritual identity. While the latter part of the purport supports the idea of chanting during death. Perhaps both performed simultaneously is ideal...Chanting His Names helps one being focused one their spiritual identity..Because death can be a very disconcerting and distracting process.
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:28 · Editado
Uttamasloka Dasa Yes, those verses from BG are always interpreted in the wrong way as you indicated. When Krsna says "remembering Me alone" it indicates complete absorption in your relationship, which is not possible if one still has anarthas, ie: material consciousness, and that directly relates to the next verse re "state of being" or consciousness.
Once you have actually realized your eternal identity, ie: the stage of bhava, you are on the transcendental platform and only serious aparadha could cause you to fall from that platform. At that stage you don't have to endeavor to stay focused anymore, ie: you are no longer 'practicing' because you have reached the goal, ie: the preliminary stage of prema.
Srila Prabhupada confirms this in a morning walk conversation Nairobi, 11.2.75:
Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance.
Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit.
Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim [SB 1.5.17].
This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. [break]
Harikeśa: They let him (Ajamila) stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect.
Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire—"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?
Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect...
Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he has fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative."
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:47
Prisni Dasi Karolina Lindqvist "A devotee told me recently that during one class, the speaker said something to the effect that it was going to be exciting to die and wake up in Vrndavana and finally find out who we are - either a desire tree or cow or gopi."
I think I might have believed something like that in iskcon too...
Somehow that kind of 'teachings' are spread in iskcon, and the true notion of life and death are not known.
To my embarassment I have to say that I have had various uncorrect notions during my time as devotee, and I pray to Krishna to finally have the correct understanding. And it appears that that correct understanding is also the most exciting.
If you reach perfection in this life, you don't fall unconscious at death and then wake up as a gopi, but instead you stay conscious through death and into the new gopi ''(gopa) body it is explained, and by that clearly indicates that you don't fall asleep and then wake up as tree, cow or gopi. You will also get the next birth as a child, not as a full fledged grownup, and your mind will be as clean as a childs. You will have forgotten this life, just as you have forgotten your previous when you entered this. So the material world is that way forgotten, as well as the western world. If you get a spiritual eternal body you will have forgotten how temporary the material body is, and all other problems.
What is left is the essence of you, that which you have cultured as being the essence of you. So sadhana is meant to cultivate that essential self, something you do already in this life.
If you maintain attachments to this world in this life, those attachments will bind you to take birth in this world again, so therefore renounciation from attachments are essential, even though not being a limb of bhakti. Also cultivation of spiritual consciousness, since whatever consciousness you have cultured and attained in this life, is what you will have in your next.
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:49
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Yes, this is the notion that they have. Externally serve the Guru's mission and never read the pastimes (Lilas) of Krsna and never wake Lobha. What is this? Lila Katha and Lobha? No need grin emoticon
Another misconception, they said, is that Lobha is simply having eagerness to enter the spiritual world. However Lobha is craving for a specific relationship in a specific Rasa.
And then, they said, Prabhupada will eventually bless that devotee with everything required to enter Vraja.
When will Prabhupada bless? According to them when the devotee is entering the spiritual world.
Something completely meaningless because Raganuga is Sadhana and should be practiced here in this life. At some point in this life you must start this practice.
"The Sadhana is for this world, Siddhi also happens here, it can be seen in Bhava. So if we do not see Krsna here, how shall we see Him later?" (Mana Siksha)
Gosto · Responder · 3 · Ontem às 10:40 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Or in other words, Krpa Siddha Prabhuji, Krpa Siddha wink emoticon
Gosto · Responder · 1 · Ontem às 10:23
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari "Devotees solely engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, never fear any condition of life. For them the heavenly planets, liberation and the hellish planets are all the same, for such devotees are interested only in the service of the Lord." (Srimad Bhagavatam - 6.17.28)
This verse is sometimes used by some to indicate that a devotee of the Lord should not worry about his fate, that is, do not worry about reaching his relationship with Krsna in a particular Rasa ......
But it is not so !!!
The devotee always wants to serve Krsna in any place or situation. But how will the devotee serve Krsna if he is conditioned by the modes of nature? Then the devotee wants to transcend the modes of nature and wants to achieve the perfection of devotional service in a specific relationship and Rasa with Krsna and thus be able to serve Him better. And then after that he does not care to be sent to where it has to be.
For such a devotee, as the verse says, it is equal if he goes to hellish planets, heavenly or attain liberation. Why? Because such a devotee is fixed in his service and specific Rasa. The verse speaks Nārāyaṇa-Parah - pure devotees of the Lord.
In other words, this verse is not saying that the devotee does not crave to attain perfection of devotional service in a specific relationship and specific Rasa with Krsna. The verse means that because the devotee has already reached his specific relationship and Rasa with Krsna, doesn't matter whatever the place Krsna send him.
Lobha, or greed, to achieve a specific relationship in specific Rasa is to be developed in this world and this life.
Raganuga Sadhana is to be practiced in this world and this life.
It is not that by simply externally serve the mission of Guru, after leaves the body and with the rare Krpa Siddha the devotee will wake Lobha and practice the Sadhana. This makes no sense.
Lobha and Raganuga Sadhana is to be awakened and executed in this life.
How?
Following the structured process given in the Bhagavatam to first hear Lila Katha and then awakening Lobha (greed) for a specific Rasa and thus absorbing the mind in devotion or by Kama (Madhurya) or by Sambandha (Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya).
"The Sadhana is for this world, Siddhi also happens here, it can be seen in Bhava. So if we do not see Krsna here, how shall we see Him later?" (Mana Siksha)
And all this simultaneously with distributing many books, distribute Prasadam and do Harinama.
Externally serve the Guru's mission is not incompatible with the practice of internal Raganuga Sadhana. On the contrary. They complement each other.
Gosto · Responder · 2 · 20 h · Editado
Bhaktin Jess Okay, here is a question that kind of relates to the idea of going back to Godhead. I read the following recently in the Krsna Book. It is found in chapter 64 and this same concept recently came up in a lecture I listened to:
"On the other hand, if someone becomes a pure Vaiṣṇava, or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will be liberated."
What does it mean to be liberated? The teacher giving the lecture was asked this question and his answer was that those generations of family members do not go back to Godhead, but instead, they are born into vaisnava families and given the opportunity to become devotees. Or something to that effect.
Any thoughts?
Gosto · Responder · 2 · Ontem às 10:51
Niscala Devi Dasi I would think it means either to Vaikuntha or to merging in the Brahman. If it means Vaikuntha and especially if it means to Vrajaloka, then how could it be possible- as you get the form and service YOU desire, but if you are not desiring it, because of no raganuga, then how does Krsna decide....that is why raganuga is so essential- it follows Krsna's desire to reciprocate our desires...and not impose...
Here is an indication that a hundred generations may be purified- amazing. Bhakti is so powerful.
Although a devotee may have been born in a caṇḍāla (dog-eater) family, by devotional service he can purify his whole family for one hundred generations, past and future, whereas a proud brāhmaṇa cannot purify even himself.
Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 2: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also quoted Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to the effect that even if a brāhmaṇa was born in a high family and is qualified with the twelve brahminical qualities, he is lower than the lowest of the low if he is not a devotee of the Supreme Lord. Although a devotee may have been born in a caṇḍāla (dog-eater) family, by devotional service he can purify his whole family for one hundred generations, past and future, whereas a proud brāhmaṇa cannot purify even himself.
Gosto · 2 · Ontem às 12:21 · Editado
Niscala Devi Dasi Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari:
Another misconception, they said, is that Lobha is simply having eagerness to enter the spiritual world. However Lobha is craving for a specific relationship in a specific Rasa.
This is explained very clearly in the follow excerpt from Jaiva Dharma:
Vrajanātha: What is the process of rāgānugā-bhakti?
Bābājī: The sādhaka who has developed greed towards the beautiful service mood (sevā) of a particular vraja-vāsī always remembers and meditates on his sevā to that personality. He is
absorbed in the mutual pastimes of his beloved Śrī Krsna with that vraja-vāsī, and he constantly resides in Vraja, either physically or within the mind, having greed to obtain his or her bhāva.
Just came across this in another forum. I am posting it here, because there is the idea being floated around (especially on Dandavats) that desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish and we should just do what Krsna wants us to do. There is also the idea that this service, our form and our relationship will be "revealed" to us at the time of death. Both conceptions are herein dispensed. Note how many times Srila Prabhupada says "particular".
Srila Prabhupada, NOD, Page 75:
In the same Narada-pancaratra, there is another expression of submission, wherein the devotee says, "My dear Lord, O lotus-eyed one, when will that day come when on the bank of the Yamuna I shall become just like a madman and continue to chant Your holy name while incessant tears flow from my eyes?"
This is another perfectional stage. Lord Caitanya also desired that "a moment will appear unto me as twelve years of time, and the whole world will appear to me as vacant on account of not seeing You, my dear Lord." One should feelingly pray and become eager to render his particular type of service to the Lord.
This is the teaching of all great devotees, especially Lord Caitanya. In other words, one should learn how to cry for the Lord. One should learn this small technique, and he should be very eager and actually cry to become engaged in some particular type of service.
This is called laulyam, and such tears are the price for the highest perfection. If one develops this laulyam, or excessive eagerness for meeting and serving the Lord in a particular way, that is the price to enter into the kingdom of God. Otherwise, there is no material calculation for the value of the ticket by which one can enter the kingdom of God. The only price for such entrance is this laulyam lalasamayi, or desire and great eagerness."
Here we see Srila Prabhupada stressing three times "particular service" because we must know what it is:
Forum:
"..most devotees don't understand that they have to discover or realize their relationship with Krsna 'before' they die - not after. Unless you realize your relationship with Krsna and thus become qualified to practice raganuga-bhakti, you cannot enter Vraja lila. Those are the facts."
This is explained as follows:
dvividhah khalu bhavo’tra sadhanabhinivesajah || (brs 1.3.7)
“The paths of vaidhi and raganuga are known to be separate from each other.
Engagement in these two forms of practice certainly awakens two distinct varieties of bhava.”
The goals of these two paths of devotion in practice are understood as follows:
vidhi-bhaktye parshada-dehe vaikunthete yaya || (cc 2.24.87)
“Through vidhi-bhakti, one will attain the form of an associate in
Vaikuntha.”
raga-bhaktye vraje svayam-bhagavane paya || (cc 2.24.85)
“Through raga-bhakti, one will attain the Lord Himself in Vraja.”
raganuga-marge tanre bhaje yei jana |
sei-jana paya vraje vrajendra-nandana || (cc 2.8.221)
“He who worships on the path of raganuga will attain Vrajendranandana (Sri Krishna) in Vraja.”
iha haite madhurya durlabha ||
kevala ye raga-marge, bhaje krishne anurage |
tare krishna-madhurya sulabha || (cc 2.21.119)
“Sweetness is very difficult to attain through fruitive activities, austerity, yoga, intellectual
speculation, vidhi-bhakti, recitation of mantras or meditation. The sweetness of Sri Krishna is
easily attainable only for the one who affectionately worships Him on the path of raga.”
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Uttamasloka Dasa
Actually, the general consensus seems to be that it will be revealed 'after' death, not even 'at the time of death'. At death, all you have to do is remember Krsna's name and you'll go to Goloka.
A devotee told me recently that during one class, the speaker said something to the effect that it was going to be exciting to die and wake up in Vrndavana and finally find out who we are - either a desire tree or cow or gopi. !!! I have no idea where this insane notion came from. It's certainly not in sastra or Srila Prabhupada's books or the acaryas' books.
Srila Prabhupada makes it very clear in Teachings of Lord Caitanya, (page 318) what state of realization one must be in at the time of death to be qualified to enter Vraja lila:
As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, a materially contaminated person transmigrates to another material body by material consciousness. At the time of death he thinks materially and is therefore transferred to another material body.
Similarly, one who at the time of death *is situated in his pure spiritual identity* thinks of the spiritual loving service rendered to the Supreme Lord and is transferred to the spiritual kingdom, to enter into the association of Kṛṣṇa.
In other words, *the qualification for being transferred to the spiritual kingdom at the time of death is to think, in one’s spiritual identity*, of Kṛṣṇa and His associates. No one can contemplate the activities of the spiritual kingdom without being situated in his pure, spiritual identity (siddha-deha).
Não gosto · Responder · 5 · Ontem às 7:16
Alexander Shenkar >>desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish and we should just do what Krsna wants us to do. <<
If this line was transcoded, it would read, "desiring a particular service or relationship with Krsna is selfish because we should surrender to the temple authority and GBC and do what they say."
That's the real purport of the message - in my most humble opinion.
Não gosto · Responder · 5 · Ontem às 7:27 · Editado
Bhaktin Jess "Actually, the general consensus seems to be that it will be revealed 'after' death, not even 'at the time of death'. At death, all you have to do is remember Krsna's name and you'll go to Goloka."
That's what I have heard during some lectures.
I think many use this verse from the Gita to support that claim:
Chapter 8, Verse 5.
And whoever, at the time of death, quits his body, remembering Me alone, at once attains My nature. Of this there is no doubt.
Many equate "Remembering Me" to remembering His names...
But then, it makes me wonder in Verse 6 where it says:
Chapter 8, Verse 6.
Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail.
Perhaps "state of being" would translate to one's spiritual identity?
In the purport of that verse, among other things, Srila Prabhupada writes:
"If one is transcendentally absorbed in Kṛṣṇa’s service, then his next body will be transcendental (spiritual), not material. Therefore the chanting of Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare is the best process for successfully changing one’s state of being at the end of one’s life."
I could see how that purport could be seen in two different ways. "If one is transcendentally absorbed in Krsna's service" could support the idea of realizing one's spiritual identity. While the latter part of the purport supports the idea of chanting during death. Perhaps both performed simultaneously is ideal...Chanting His Names helps one being focused one their spiritual identity..Because death can be a very disconcerting and distracting process.
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:28 · Editado
Uttamasloka Dasa Yes, those verses from BG are always interpreted in the wrong way as you indicated. When Krsna says "remembering Me alone" it indicates complete absorption in your relationship, which is not possible if one still has anarthas, ie: material consciousness, and that directly relates to the next verse re "state of being" or consciousness.
Once you have actually realized your eternal identity, ie: the stage of bhava, you are on the transcendental platform and only serious aparadha could cause you to fall from that platform. At that stage you don't have to endeavor to stay focused anymore, ie: you are no longer 'practicing' because you have reached the goal, ie: the preliminary stage of prema.
Srila Prabhupada confirms this in a morning walk conversation Nairobi, 11.2.75:
Harikeśa: I'm curious about the destination of a neophyte devotee. If a neophyte devotee is with determination endeavoring for purification but he were to meet with death as he is still influenced by the lower modes, although he is seriously trying, then does he take another birth or does he go to Kṛṣṇa?
Prabhupāda: No, he has to take another birth. If he is not completely purified, he has to suffer another birth. Nobody is allowed to enter into the spiritual unless he is cent percent pure. No allowance.
Then he has to... Therefore it is said, śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ gehe yoga-bhraṣṭo sañjāyate [Bg. 6.41]. He is given chance, another chance, to take birth in a very pure brāhmaṇa family or rich family so that he may take again the chance, not in, he is allowed to enter. He is given a good chance again. That is his benefit.
Even if you are failure, still, your next birth as a very first-class human being is guaranteed. Not for others. It is only for the yogis. If he is... Therefore it is said that "What is the loss even if he is failure?" Tyaktvā sva-dharmaṁ caraṇāmbujaṁ harer bhajann apakvo 'tha patet tato yadi yatra kva va abhadram abhūd amuṣya kim [SB 1.5.17].
This verse is very important. Even by sentiment one comes to Kṛṣṇa consciousness and discharges the regulative duties, chants Hare Kṛṣṇa, his next life is guaranteed as a human being. Even he does it for some time—he is not perfect—still, his next life is guaranteed. But others, there is no such guarantee. Even if he discharges his so-called duties, material duties, there is no guarantee that he'll become a human being. [break]
Harikeśa: They let him (Ajamila) stay in that body and then he went to Hṛṣīkeśa and performed devotional service and then became perfect.
Prabhupāda: No, he was already perfect, but to increase his desire—"How shall I go Vaikuṇṭha?"—another time he had to go. He was a perfect; otherwise how he was saved from the Yamadutas?
Harikeśa: So if a devotee dies and remembers Kṛṣṇa, although he is not perfect...
Prabhupāda: Unless he is perfect, he cannot remember Kṛṣṇa. That is not possible. That is not possible. That is theory only. He must be perfect. Somehow or other, he has fallen, so Kṛṣṇa gives him the chance. That is special concession for devotee. Some way or other, you become devotee. Even if you cannot finish the whole job, if you fall down, still, there is guarantee that you get your birth in a very good society. That is the prerogative."
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:47
Prisni Dasi Karolina Lindqvist "A devotee told me recently that during one class, the speaker said something to the effect that it was going to be exciting to die and wake up in Vrndavana and finally find out who we are - either a desire tree or cow or gopi."
I think I might have believed something like that in iskcon too...
Somehow that kind of 'teachings' are spread in iskcon, and the true notion of life and death are not known.
To my embarassment I have to say that I have had various uncorrect notions during my time as devotee, and I pray to Krishna to finally have the correct understanding. And it appears that that correct understanding is also the most exciting.
If you reach perfection in this life, you don't fall unconscious at death and then wake up as a gopi, but instead you stay conscious through death and into the new gopi ''(gopa) body it is explained, and by that clearly indicates that you don't fall asleep and then wake up as tree, cow or gopi. You will also get the next birth as a child, not as a full fledged grownup, and your mind will be as clean as a childs. You will have forgotten this life, just as you have forgotten your previous when you entered this. So the material world is that way forgotten, as well as the western world. If you get a spiritual eternal body you will have forgotten how temporary the material body is, and all other problems.
What is left is the essence of you, that which you have cultured as being the essence of you. So sadhana is meant to cultivate that essential self, something you do already in this life.
If you maintain attachments to this world in this life, those attachments will bind you to take birth in this world again, so therefore renounciation from attachments are essential, even though not being a limb of bhakti. Also cultivation of spiritual consciousness, since whatever consciousness you have cultured and attained in this life, is what you will have in your next.
Não gosto · Responder · 4 · Ontem às 7:49
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Yes, this is the notion that they have. Externally serve the Guru's mission and never read the pastimes (Lilas) of Krsna and never wake Lobha. What is this? Lila Katha and Lobha? No need grin emoticon
Another misconception, they said, is that Lobha is simply having eagerness to enter the spiritual world. However Lobha is craving for a specific relationship in a specific Rasa.
And then, they said, Prabhupada will eventually bless that devotee with everything required to enter Vraja.
When will Prabhupada bless? According to them when the devotee is entering the spiritual world.
Something completely meaningless because Raganuga is Sadhana and should be practiced here in this life. At some point in this life you must start this practice.
"The Sadhana is for this world, Siddhi also happens here, it can be seen in Bhava. So if we do not see Krsna here, how shall we see Him later?" (Mana Siksha)
Gosto · Responder · 3 · Ontem às 10:40 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Or in other words, Krpa Siddha Prabhuji, Krpa Siddha wink emoticon
Gosto · Responder · 1 · Ontem às 10:23
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari "Devotees solely engaged in the devotional service of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Nārāyaṇa, never fear any condition of life. For them the heavenly planets, liberation and the hellish planets are all the same, for such devotees are interested only in the service of the Lord." (Srimad Bhagavatam - 6.17.28)
This verse is sometimes used by some to indicate that a devotee of the Lord should not worry about his fate, that is, do not worry about reaching his relationship with Krsna in a particular Rasa ......
But it is not so !!!
The devotee always wants to serve Krsna in any place or situation. But how will the devotee serve Krsna if he is conditioned by the modes of nature? Then the devotee wants to transcend the modes of nature and wants to achieve the perfection of devotional service in a specific relationship and Rasa with Krsna and thus be able to serve Him better. And then after that he does not care to be sent to where it has to be.
For such a devotee, as the verse says, it is equal if he goes to hellish planets, heavenly or attain liberation. Why? Because such a devotee is fixed in his service and specific Rasa. The verse speaks Nārāyaṇa-Parah - pure devotees of the Lord.
In other words, this verse is not saying that the devotee does not crave to attain perfection of devotional service in a specific relationship and specific Rasa with Krsna. The verse means that because the devotee has already reached his specific relationship and Rasa with Krsna, doesn't matter whatever the place Krsna send him.
Lobha, or greed, to achieve a specific relationship in specific Rasa is to be developed in this world and this life.
Raganuga Sadhana is to be practiced in this world and this life.
It is not that by simply externally serve the mission of Guru, after leaves the body and with the rare Krpa Siddha the devotee will wake Lobha and practice the Sadhana. This makes no sense.
Lobha and Raganuga Sadhana is to be awakened and executed in this life.
How?
Following the structured process given in the Bhagavatam to first hear Lila Katha and then awakening Lobha (greed) for a specific Rasa and thus absorbing the mind in devotion or by Kama (Madhurya) or by Sambandha (Dasya, Sakhya, Vatsalya).
"The Sadhana is for this world, Siddhi also happens here, it can be seen in Bhava. So if we do not see Krsna here, how shall we see Him later?" (Mana Siksha)
And all this simultaneously with distributing many books, distribute Prasadam and do Harinama.
Externally serve the Guru's mission is not incompatible with the practice of internal Raganuga Sadhana. On the contrary. They complement each other.
Gosto · Responder · 2 · 20 h · Editado
Bhaktin Jess Okay, here is a question that kind of relates to the idea of going back to Godhead. I read the following recently in the Krsna Book. It is found in chapter 64 and this same concept recently came up in a lecture I listened to:
"On the other hand, if someone becomes a pure Vaiṣṇava, or devotee of the Lord, ten generations of his family before his birth and ten generations after will be liberated."
What does it mean to be liberated? The teacher giving the lecture was asked this question and his answer was that those generations of family members do not go back to Godhead, but instead, they are born into vaisnava families and given the opportunity to become devotees. Or something to that effect.
Any thoughts?
Gosto · Responder · 2 · Ontem às 10:51
Niscala Devi Dasi I would think it means either to Vaikuntha or to merging in the Brahman. If it means Vaikuntha and especially if it means to Vrajaloka, then how could it be possible- as you get the form and service YOU desire, but if you are not desiring it, because of no raganuga, then how does Krsna decide....that is why raganuga is so essential- it follows Krsna's desire to reciprocate our desires...and not impose...
Here is an indication that a hundred generations may be purified- amazing. Bhakti is so powerful.
Although a devotee may have been born in a caṇḍāla (dog-eater) family, by devotional service he can purify his whole family for one hundred generations, past and future, whereas a proud brāhmaṇa cannot purify even himself.
Teachings of Lord Caitanya, Chapter 2: Caitanya Mahāprabhu also quoted Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam to the effect that even if a brāhmaṇa was born in a high family and is qualified with the twelve brahminical qualities, he is lower than the lowest of the low if he is not a devotee of the Supreme Lord. Although a devotee may have been born in a caṇḍāla (dog-eater) family, by devotional service he can purify his whole family for one hundred generations, past and future, whereas a proud brāhmaṇa cannot purify even himself.
Gosto · 2 · Ontem às 12:21 · Editado
Niscala Devi Dasi Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari:
Another misconception, they said, is that Lobha is simply having eagerness to enter the spiritual world. However Lobha is craving for a specific relationship in a specific Rasa.
This is explained very clearly in the follow excerpt from Jaiva Dharma:
Vrajanātha: What is the process of rāgānugā-bhakti?
Bābājī: The sādhaka who has developed greed towards the beautiful service mood (sevā) of a particular vraja-vāsī always remembers and meditates on his sevā to that personality. He is
absorbed in the mutual pastimes of his beloved Śrī Krsna with that vraja-vāsī, and he constantly resides in Vraja, either physically or within the mind, having greed to obtain his or her bhāva.
