Revelation of siddha-svarupa
Answers by HH Romapada Swami
Q: During one of our recent discussions in our study group there was a discussion on siddha svarup.
One of the devotees said that the spiritual master would reveal one’s svarup at some point of time when such a disciple has reached such a stage. My humble opinion is that such a practice is not there in ISKCON and as and when a devotee reaches such a stage of advancement it will be known to him naturally.
Can I humbly request you to kindly clarify this?
Answer: Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.
Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature. The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)
You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail. However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.
source
6 Responses to “Revelation of siddha-svarupa”
yamuna jivana das says : REPLY
May 18, 2015 at 8:31 am
The complaint first. The source-link offered on the end of the article, leads not to Romapada Swami’s discussion page, but to a strange page where there’s no Romapada Swami, instead there are a few other links and most lead to link-lists where prominently figures a link entitled “Breaking free from ISKCON”, which contains very low and offensive material.
Good to correct this.
Otherwise, thanks for the article.
Ys Yamuna j das
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
May 19, 2015 at 12:45 pm
Chapter 9 of the Nectar of Devotion where Prabhupada explains lalasamayi refers to the verse 1.2.152 of the Second Wave of Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu dealing with Sadhana Bhakti.
So, lalasamayi or laulyam is not to be cultivated only after being liberated.
samprārthanātmikā dainya-bodhikā lālasāmayī |
ity ādir vividhā dhīraiḥ kṛṣṇe vijñaptir īritā ||1.2.152 ||
“The wise have explained that there are varieties of entreaty to Kṛṣṇa, such as prayers, admission of incompetence and expressions of longing.”
Lalasamayi in svarupa siddhi stage is very intense, but lalasamayi or laulyam begin well before in Sadhana stage. And this is what Prabhupada is explaining when he says that lalasamayi (intense) comes in the stage of svarupa siddhi.
Not to mention that lobha is also described in Sadhana stage. BRS 1.2.292.
In Sadhana stage the devotee can meditate on his siddha svarupa. Perhaps not with many details (ekadas bhava), but in a more simple way as instructed by Sadasiva to Narada Muni in Sanat Kumara Samhita (in this case there aroused lobha by madhurya). And then will slowly increasing the details of his meditation:
Sanat Kumara Samhita:
“184 and 185
atmanam cintayet tatra
tasam madhye manoramam
rupa-yauvana-sampannam
kisorim pramadakritim
nana-silpa-kalabhijnam
krishna-bhoganurupinim
prarthitam api krishnena
tato bhoga-paranmukhim
The sadhaka should think of oneself as a beautiful young gopi girl expert in various arts, pleasing to Lord Krishna, reluctant to directly enjoy with Lord Krsna even if He were personally to invite you, . . .
186
radhikanucarim nityam
tat-sevana-parayanam
krishnad apy adhikam prema
radhikayam prakurvatim
. . . a follower of Sri Radha, always devoted to Her service, more affectionate to Sri Radha than to Lord Krsna Himself, . . .
187
prityanudivasam yatnat
tayoh sangama-karinim
tat-sevana-sukhasvada-
bharenati-su-nirvritam
. . . every day carefully and affectionately arranging the meeting of Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, and becoming happy to see Them pleased by your service.
188
ity atmanam vicintyaiva
tatra sevam samacaret
brahma-muhurtam arabhya
yavat santa maha-nisa
Thinking of oneself in this way, one should serve Sri Sri Radha-Krsna from the early morning of brahma-muhurta to the end of night.”
I say no more.
Well, only one more thing:
From Srila Prabhupada’s Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.3.16-17, Gorakhpur, February 18, 1971:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
Yes. Not directly. No. You cannot say that “I have become Sudama.” No. You have to follow the footsteps of Sudama. “I have become mother Yashoda.” No. You have to follow the footsteps of mother Yashoda. That is real position. And as soon as you say, “I am Yashoda. I am Sudama,” then it is as good as the Mayavadis say, “I am God.” You see? So dasa-dasanudasa. That process should be followed.
Hansadutta: Suppose someone is satisfied simply being related with the spiritual master.
Prabhupada: That is everyone’s business. Everyone’s business. That is not a particular taste. That is the duty of all devotees.
Pusta Krishna das says : REPLY
May 23, 2015 at 4:23 am
First point, when I was Srila Prabhupad’s personal secretary, a letter came to His Divine Grace that there was a “gopi bhava” club of sorts in Los Angeles. Srila Prabhupad said: “Gopi bhava club! Let them first chant Hare Krishna for 300 years and then they can discuss gopi bhava.”
Secondly, the jiva souls are parts and parcels of Krishna, achintya bedabeda tattva. The liberated lovers of Krishna have senses that are expansions of Krishna’s senses. Hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam bhaktir ucyate. Krishna has expanded Himself to increase His pleasure and He relishes the rasas with the bhaktas. The bhaktas are fully overwhelmed by Krishna’s beauty, ecstasy and love. The liberated souls are “Krishna consious”, not self conscious. Their consciousness is virtually one with Krishna, although it is a correct philosophical point that the jiva soul does not cease to exist. The cowherd boys walked into the mouth of Aghasura thinking that…’this cave may actually be a demon and it may kill us, but it cannot kill Krishna.’ Their consciousness is fully immersed in Krishna. The gopis when called by Krishna’s flute drop every thing they appeared to be doing externally and immediately rush to be with Krishna.
It is thus potentially a pitfall to be thinking about one’s “future” role. We have seen these topics being bantered about and they may continue to be…but for me, I pray to Krishna that He may please give me His shelter and engage me as He would like for His pleasure. Once we separate ourselves from pleasing Krishna to take time out to contemplate what our spiritual body may be, ie spiritual rasa, may be, we run the risk of material consiideration, ie prakrita sahajaya, whereby one desires to be the enjoyer. This can be avoided. On the other hand, we can hear about and relish the pastimes of Krishna with His devotees, not trying to immitate, but rather appreciating their qualities. Even Krishna appreciates the qualities of the devotees, as He sent His dear friend to witness the super-excellent quality of Krishna consciousness and love expressed by the gopis. Uddhava’s response was to become a blade of grass in Vrindaban that he might be blessed by the dust of the lotus feet of the gopis.
Srila Rupa Goswami recommended 3 things: enthusiasm, determination, and patience. Hare Krishna.
Pusta Krishna das
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
May 27, 2015 at 6:11 pm
1 – 300 years … Srila Prabhupada was really upset. But I think he was angry because those devotees did something out consulting him and they were not prepared. But I do not think Srila Prabhupada actually wished to say that 300 years of no Raganuga Sadhana.
Example of this:
“Vaidhī-bhakti, that is apprenticeship. Real bhakti, parā-bhakti, that is rāgānugā-bhakti. This rāgānugā-bhakti, we have to come after surpassing the vaidhī-bhakti. In the material world, if we do not try to make further and further progress in devotional service, if we are simply sticking to the shastric regulation process and do not try to go beyond that…That is not real honey. You have to open the bottle of the honey and lick up the real honey, then you’ll get taste. That is advancement of spiritual knowledge.” (Lecture on SB 1.2.33 — Vrndavana, November 12, 1972)
2 – A friend of mine said: “It can pass as surrender as well: “Oh I don’t want to impose my will on Krsna, He can make me whatever He wants me to be and I will be happy”. This meaning of surrender ignores Krsna’s unique quality of wanting always to reciprocate with the DESIRES of His devotee. He doesn’t reciprocate if we don’t have desire for Him – what can He reciprocate with? He is all-attractive, we should be desirous! Devotional service should be full of desire for Krsna, ranging in intensity up to Prema. If it’s lacking in desire, it lacks in results.”
3 – Certainly we should not imitate dressing in Saris :D, and we should hear the sweet pastimes of Krsna … by doing this will emerge an impetus for a particular Rasa that we must internally cultivate by following an intimate associate of Krsna.
“Special natural appreciation of the descriptions of a particular pastime of Godhead indicates the constitutional position of a living entity.” (Srila Prabhupada – Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Ādi 4.34)
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
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May 27, 2015 at 6:46 pm
This comment is not to be published. It’s just a question I have. My comments on facebook about this post has been deleted and I can no longer make any comment on facebook. Is this right? I made no offensive comment. Just do not agree philosophically. Is this a reason to delete my comments? Ok. Thank you very much. Sorry for anything. Hare Krsna !!!
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
May 27, 2015 at 9:48 pm
Prabhupada was against ahaṅgrahopāsanā and against dressing externally as the associates of Krsna.
But Prabhupada gave us the structured process of Sadhana Raganuga we should follow:
“If one wrongly thinks that the material body is as perfect as the spiritual body and thus begins to worship Kṛṣṇa by imitating the damsels of Vṛndāvana, he becomes infested with Māyāvāda (impersonal) philosophy. The impersonalists recommend a process of ahaṅgrahopāsanā, by which one worships his own body as the Supreme. Thinking in this way, such pseudo-transcendentalists dress themselves as the damsels of Vraja. Such activities are not acceptable in devotional service. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, the most authoritative ācārya in the Gauḍīya-sampradāya, has condemned these imitators. The process of transcendental realization is to follow in the footsteps of the associates of the Supreme Lord; therefore to think oneself a direct associate of the Supreme Lord is condemned. According to authorized Vaiṣṇava principles, one should follow a particular devotee and not think of himself as Kṛṣṇa’s associate.
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world. One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
(1)By adopting this emotional mood of following in the footsteps of the gopīs, one attains his siddha-deha. (2)This word indicates the pure spiritual body, which is beyond the senses, mind and intelligence. The siddha-deha is the purified soul who is just suitable to serve the Supreme Lord. (3)No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his perfectly pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination.” (Srila Prabhupada – TLC Chapter 31)
And what is this structured process of Raganuga Sadhana that Prabhupada has given us? This is it: “One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress.”
Prabhupada is explaining here that the Siddha Deha has 3 phases:
1 – On Sadhana phase meditate in the desired Siddha Deha.
2 – In the advanced stage of Bhava, the devotee realize the Siddha Deha, which is called Svarupa Siddhi.
3 – When born from the womb of a Gopi in a material universe reaches the final realization of the Siddha Deha, which is called Vastu Siddhi.
For God’s sake, Raganuga is Sadhana and not the stage of perfection. Raganuga is included in Sadhana stage of Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu.
Pusta Krishna das says : REPLY
May 28, 2015 at 4:43 am
Please be careful. Krishna consciousness is about loving Krishna. Sri Krishna reciprocates with His ecstatic loving unique ways. There are descriptions of kalpa-vriksha, wish fulfilling spiritual trees, and the like in Goloka Vrindaban. The desire of the devotee in liberation is prema-bhakti, selfless love for Krishna Who represents “Raso vai sah”. Any articles for offering are to enhance Krishna’s pleasure. He is indeed rasa, sweetness of all spiritual relationships for all. Truly, the super-excellence of the gopis and other spiritual forms in Goloka is their fullness of consciousness of Krishna. They are not at all enjoyers, but givers. It is also achintya. Even when Krishna desires to dance with His gopis, they submit for His pleasure. They deposit everything in Krishna and Krishna reciprocates…but then the inhabitants of Goloka do not keep anything for themselves, but rather continue to deposit all of their love and ecstasy back to Krishna. Krishna’s love is all in all. This reciprocal spiritual current is rasa. Yes, and ultimately we hear that Krishna is ultimately won over by the charm os Srimati Radharani’s selfless boundless love. These gopis are the servants of Their loving relationship.
Raganuga and vaidhi are conceived of by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma as different dispositions of different devotees. Ultimately, all will culminate in raganuga as it must because of the super-excellence of Krishna prema. Spontaneous noncalculating love for Krishna.
However, what I have expressed in my comment above, is Srila Prabhupad’s own expression. Sripad Prahladesh das, I think, is possibly misunderstanding what he expresses as “DESIRES” of the bhakta. The bhakta is desireless (na socati na kanshati) neither hankering for anything nor lamenting for anything material, ie for their own advantage. I am sure that the desire that Prahladesh is alluding to is purely spiritual. I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional. Rather, consideration for loving and pleasing Krishna is the quality of devotion that is paramount. Srila Prabhupad hated the thought that his mission might degrade into a sahajiya movement either externally or internally on the mental plane. We worship the mood of the inhabitants of Vrindaban for it is all for Krishna. Krishna will supply the means, including the perfect spiritual form for the bhakta to love Him as Sri Krishna knows the heart of the devotee intimately. The liberated devotee is not self-conscious, but rather Krishna conscious. The nectar, the opening of the “honey jar” described above, that too is for the pleasure of Krishna. What joy and ecstasy that Krishna may offer the bhakta is offered back to Krishna with profound spiritual love, in full submission, and not for one’s own digestion. That is the expression of love in Goloka, all for Krishna. We can appreciate that mood in the pastimes of the inhabitants of Vrindaban in Krishna lila. And, we take shelter of their divine mood of devotion.
Pusta Krishna das
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
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May 28, 2015 at 11:30 pm
Thank you Sriman Pusta Krsna Dasa Prabhu. I understand your concern about not wanting the movement of Srila Prabhupada to become a Sahajiya Movement (internally and externally).
It’s not that externally the devotee will just stay all day doing Lila Smarana and will not do anything practical. No. Externally the devotee must be very active to distribute Prabhupada’s books, distribute Prasadam and go on Harinama.
And internally should not want to enjoy a relationship with Krsna but should have an attitude of service. This is all very clear. A devotee who comes to the point of aim Raganuga Sadhana and deepen in Rasa Tattva will already have gone through all Bhagavatam cantos and all the Tattvas of Bhakti and certainly understand that a devotee only aims to fulfill Krsna’s desires, not their own ….. and exactly because of this the devotee “DESIRE” to serve Krsna in a particular Rasa.
“In the Skanda Purāṇa there is a statement about submission unto the lotus feet of the Lord. It is said there that those who are sober devotees can offer their submission to Kṛṣṇa in the following three ways: (1) samprārthanātmikā, very feelingly offering prayers; (2) dainya-vodhikā, humbly submitting oneself; (3) lālasā-mayī, desiring some perfectional stage. This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification. When one realizes something of his constitutional relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he understands his original position and wants to be reinstated in this position, either as friend, servant, parent or conjugal lover of Kṛṣṇa. That is called lālasā-mayī, or very eagerly desiring to go to one’s natural position. This lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation, which is technically called svarūpa-siddhi, when the living entity understands, by perfect spiritual advancement and revelation, his original relationship with the Lord.” (Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada – NOD 9)
“This desiring some perfectional stage in spiritual life is not sense gratification.”
Note that Prabhupada is here to explain that lālasā-mayī stage of submission comes in the stage of perfect liberation called svarūpa-siddhi. But this desire for a specific relationship begins well before:
“Hamsadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.”
So, the devotee “desire” to achieve the perfect stage for …. satisfy the “desire” of Krsna.
Wish to attain perfection in a specific Rasa is not sense gratification. But it is a sympton of submission.
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
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May 29, 2015 at 4:22 pm
Or in other words, the devotee wants to achieve perfection in a specific Rasa because then he will be able to better serve Krsna.
A devotee never, never, never, ever think of his own satisfaction. But how to serve Krsna in a specific and intrinsic Rasa which the devotee is attracted.
Prahladesh Dasa says : REPLY
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May 29, 2015 at 4:31 pm
The Krsna consciousness process begins with the act of sravanam “hear ” – hear about the names, forms, qualities, pastimes (Lilas), home and associates of Krishna.
When we listen with faith and with right attitude, the topics and / or spoken by Kṛṣṇa (kṛṣṇa-katha), two auspicious things happen:
(1) by hearing about Krishna lila in relation to the material world, including killing demons, anarthas (unwanted and contaminated things) are removed from our consciousness (Heart);
(2) by hearing (of a pure devotee) on the esoteric or confidential activities of Krsna, inspiring onself to follow in the footsteps of one of his eternal associates, we awaken our dormant relationship with Kṛṣṇa.
So Srila Prabhupada gave us the “Krishna Book” to read forever.
But not only that. In Krsna Book, Prabhupada recommends reading all Lila Granthas like Krishna Bhavanamrta and others.
By doing that inevitably one impetus for Raganuga Sadhana will arise. There is no way to avoid it.
Here is an illuminating reference from Vedanta-sutras:
The liberated jiva, if he has a body, enjoys as in the waking state. VS, 4.4.14
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s commentary:
With a body, the jiva can enjoy (more intensely), as in the waking state. The argument that the liberated jiva has no desire is not proper because rasa, which is to be enjoyed, becomes desired by the jiva, since it is the mercy of the Lord.
Though the Lord is satisfied in Himself, He has desires to enjoy because of the desire of the devotee (to give him enjoyment). Similarly, the liberated jiva has desires for enjoying what is given as the mercy of the Lord, because of his bhakti to the Lord (accepting it to please the Lord).
How anyone could possibly think that the realm of the highest unlimited bliss, especially Goloka, would be a place where no one but Krsna enjoys is beyond belief, yet these foolish ideas persist among neophytes who were taught by people with serious misunderstandings.
In the Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta, we learn that the relationships in Goloka are an astonishing mix of sweetness, opulence and worldly characteristics.
Although that reciprocal affection seems to follow the ways of the ordinary world, it is beyond the world. It combines intimate sweetness, amazing opulence, and worldly simplicity. BB, 2.5.84
From Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Goloka’s Lord and its residents care for one another as do people of the material world, yet their prema transcends the limits of mundane love. The loving dealings of Vraja are like nothing ever seen in this world. … Kṛṣṇa’s friends are constantly desirous of seeing Him, so much so that they cannot tolerate even the momentary obstruction caused by Kṛṣṇa’s passing behind a tree. And the blessed cowherd girls have no interest in life other than Him; whether separated from Him, or going out to meet Him, or enjoying His company, they relish all sorts of extraordinary ecstasy.
In these ways the prema of Vraja is both amazing and sweet, combining within itself the majestic opulence of the spiritual world and the simple sweetness of the material world. The devotees of Vraja possess super-worldly opulence, and at the same time they are the most simple people.
By their opulent power they are expertly able to understand and take part in all the various aspects of the Lord’s countless pastimes. And like ordinary people, the vraja-vāsīs, it is well known from the accounts of their lives, enjoy food and drink, the company of friends and relatives, and so on.
The highest levels of bhakti produce the highest bliss. You are correct in saying that the basis of happiness in the spiritual world is seeing Krsna's happiness.
"..the devotees say that prema functions not by seeing one's own happiness, but by seeing Krsna's happiness"
and this produces "incomparable happiness" even if there is separation: "In adhirudha-bahav, there is simultaneous, incomparable happiness and suffering caused by union and separation. This produces an incomparable happiness." This is becaise "In separation, since the separation has continuous meetng through dreams or in the mind because of His sudden appearance through remembrance (sphurti), the separation become filled with happiness." UN 14.171 PP by VCT
In case my comments on the article on Dandavats don't get accepted, here they are. First, my response to Romapada Swami. Here is part 1:
RPS: “Every living entity has an eternal constitutional relationship with Krishna, and when one attains the liberated platform he automatically understands this relationship. It is not the system supported by Srila Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Thakur that one’s spiritual identity be artificially declared before the stage when Krishna reveals this, especially when one is still affected by the modes of nature. Srila Prabhupada clearly taught that just as we cannot force the sun to rise at our convenience or by our pronouncements, but it rises of its own accord at the right time, similarly our constitutional position becomes manifest at the right time.”
US: This is absolutely not at all what the acaryas teach in their books. First of all, the guru does not ‘reveal’ one’s relationship with Krsna, and second, it happens ‘before’ the liberated platform, otherwise, one could not attain the liberated platform, ie: bhava and prema. And one does ‘not’ have to be completely free from the modes of nature either.
In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, First Wave, Chapter 2, Sadhana-bhakti, Rupa Gosvami states that there are two types of sadhana-bhakti, ie: vaidhi and raganuga. The qualifications he gives for raganuga are that one has awakened or realized the ‘type’ of relationship one desires with Krsna in Vraja, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya, and one has identified a particular nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi whose raga and bhava one aspires to follow (anuga). Along with these two elements the key criterion is that one has an intense desire to attain that relationship, ie: lobha – greed.
No mention is made in BRS or the commentaries, or in any other books of the acaryas, that one must first be liberated or freed from the modes of nature. That is completely illogical and rather absurd because it implies that one must first become liberated in order to ‘practice’ raganuga-sadhana so that one can then become liberated! None of the acaryas teach this.
When Srila Prabhupada said liberated in NOD he did not literally mean the liberated platform. He meant freed from the influence of major anarthas. This is confirmed by Visvanatha Cakravarti in his Madhurya-kadambini where he explains that anartha-nivritti continues all the way up to the stage of bhava.
According to Jiva Gosvami and Visvanatha Cakravarti one’s desired relationship (rasa or rati) awakens over many lifetimes of impressions from sadhana and sadhu-sanga. This is explained in Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu:
These five types of rati [i.e., the rati or bhāva associated with each of the five rasas] progressively become more blissful by increasing tastes. The particular taste arises in a devotee according to his previous experiences. BRS, 2.5.38
Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary:
But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati?
In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste.
Though not being in a position to perceive the depth of that rasa, one can confirm its identity by comparing scriptural descriptions of rasas with one’s own inclinations, and by inference through seeing how rasas, different from one’s own rasa, either nourish or fail to nourish the total ingredients.
Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
Among the various tastes such as sweet, sour and bitter, a particular person has a particular liking because of previous impressions. Because of impressions from a past life of a particular rasa, such as dāsya, in this life also, the person has that taste alone and not others, by the mercy of a great devotee with a similar taste. This is the case for the two types of dāsya and the other three higher rasas.
Part 2:
RPS: “Sometimes less mature devotees are misled by a false sense of enthusiasm to prematurely understand their relationship with Krishna. They may consider this justifiable as a means that would enable them to practice and cultivate the eagerness for such a relationship. Unfortunately, however, this is not the recommended process given by our founder-acharya, and almost always proves dangerous for the tender devotional creeper of less qualified sadhakas. Without cultivating the fundamental spiritual qualities of submission to one’s spiritual master, a selfless service mood, sense-control and completely uprooting one’s materialistic conceptions, one is certain to impose some material conceptions upon one’s so-called svarupa or eternal nature. “As quoted by Prahladadesh above, Srila Prabhupada does not agree with this idea. Here he is asked specifically about a ‘neophyte’ devotee, who is obviously still engaged in sadhana:
Hansadutta: So Prabhupada, a neophyte devotee, he may think it might be very nice to be Krishna’s friend, but he may actually be a blade of grass and he’ll be fully satisfied when he comes to that stage?
Prabhupada: No. If he thinks like that, then he should cultivate that knowledge in that way. Yes. That is described in The Nectar of Devotion and Teachings of Lord Caitanya.
Hansadutta: But that may not be his actual position. It may be something else?
Prabhupada: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such impetus comes, that means he has got such relation. It is to be developed. That’s all. That means the actual relationship with Krishna is coming out gradually. It is being developed. So one has to develop it, following the footsteps of the Krishna’s friends in Vrindavana. These are described here.
RPS: “The Nectar of Devotion confirms that this type of longing or prayer for some spiritual perfectional stage, technically called the ‘lalasamayi’ stage of submission, actually comes in the stage of perfect liberation and spiritual advancement, and is not to be artificially induced. (Cf. NOD Ch 9, Submission)”
US: This is also incorrect siddhanta. Lobha or laulyam absolutely must arise while one is still practicing (sadhana) or one cannot attain bhava or prema. It is the very prerequisite for attaining perfection – prema. This is also explained in BRS in the chapter on sadhana-bhakti:
The qualification for rāgānugā-bhakti is as follows: That person who is greedy (lobha) for attaining a bhāva similar to that of the inhabitants of Vraja – who are fixed solely in rāgātmikā-bhakti – is qualified for rāgānugā-bhakti. BRS, 1.2.291
Viśvanātha Cakravartī elaborates on this verse after quoting it in Rāga-vartma-candrikā:
If one thinks, “let such greed arise in me also”, after hearing about moods such as the transcendental conjugal mood toward Kṛṣṇa of His associates, the gopīs in Vraja, then one need not wait for suitable sanctions from the revealed scriptures or logical arguments. If such impetuses are there (i.e., suitable sanctions or logical arguments), then it cannot be justly called greed.
This greed never arises in anyone on such basis, nor does the candidate ever consider whether or not he is qualified for the path of rāgānugā-bhakti. Rather, simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him. RVC, 1.5
In Rāga-vartma-candrikā, Viśvanātha Cakravartī explains how greed/lobha arises:
There are two causes for the appearance of greed:
(1) the mercy of Kṛṣṇa
(2) the mercy of another anurāgi devotee
There are again two kinds of mercy bestowed by a devotee:
(1) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in a previous life – praktana
(2) mercy bestowed by a rāgānugā devotee in the present birth – adhunika
The praktana devotee takes shelter of the lotus feet of a rāgānugā guru after the greed has arisen in him, and the adhunika will get that greed only after having surrendered to the feet of such a guru.
It is said (BRS, 1.2.309): “The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy).” RVC, 1.6
RPS: “You are correct when you indicate that the procedure of HOW the revealing of one’s svarupa takes place is not spelled out in great detail.”
US: Those details are readily available if one studies the books of the previous acaryas as Srila Prabhupada instructed us to do repeatedly in his books. And studying these books will also shed additional light onto Srila Prabhupada’s teachings.
RPS: “However, the other BV member is also correct: the fundamental faith of a sincere devotee is that their spiritual master connects them with Krishna via the disciplic succession, and by the collective descending mercy of the guru parampara all truths become naturally revealed. This is our natural process, without having before us the micro-technology of this mystical process.”
US: Knowledge is ‘acquired’ by hearing and studying the books of the acaryas. Knowledge is not ‘revealed’. What is revealed are the deeper layers of understanding, or imports, of that acquired knowledge. That’s how it works. No one is going to have all of the detailed knowledge from BRS or any other book ‘revealed’ to them during japa.
I encourage all devotees to take the time to seriously study the major books of the previous acaryas to enhance their understanding of what Srila Prabhupada taught us in his books. By doing so, one can go deeper in their understanding and also become aware of the full details they have given us for our benefit, having been instructed personally by Lord Caitanya. Then all of these misconceptions will be eradicated and one will properly understand that actual process to attain Vraja prema.
US: Knowledge is ‘acquired’ by hearing and studying the books of the acaryas
This is confirmed as follows:
When both kinds of devotees, the one yearning for ancient lobha, the other for modern lobha, hear how to acquire the devotional mellows possessed by Krsna's eternal associates, or nitya parikara, they seek guidance from the proper scriptures. This is because the authorized method for attaining bhava is delineated in scriptural injunctions and purports; no other sources for receiving this information are indicated anywhere." Raga Vartma Candrika, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura
Here is part 1 of my response to Pusta Krsna's first post:
PK: “First point, when I was Srila Prabhupada’s personal secretary, a letter came to His Divine Grace that there was a “gopi bhava” club of sorts in Los Angeles. Srila Prabhupada said: “Gopi bhava club! Let them first chant Hare Krishna for 300 years and then they can discuss gopi bhava.””
US: The old gopi-bhava club being brought up again. This incident has nothing to do with raganuga-bhakti, nor did Srila Prabhupada say that it did. It had to do with neophyte devotees who were barely in the movement for 3-5 years and who prematurely ventured into trying to understand Krsna’s conjugal pastimes without any guidance. That’s it.
It is not relevant to this discussion nor to devotees who have been engaged in bhakti for over 40 years or even 10 years. And we can see from Srila Prabhupada’s discussion quoted above, about even neophyte devotees awakening an attraction for a particular relationship with Krsna, that he encouraged that they should ‘develop’ or ‘cultivate’ these desires, even in the beginning stages. He didn’t mention chanting for 300 years in that discussion, did he?
And regarding the gopi-bhava club, if you read the transcripts you will see that Srila Prabhupada was not entirely against them wanting to understand these things by reading his books – because that’s all they were doing – ie: reading the very same books that Srila Prabhupada had us distribute to completely fallen non-devotees who would also read these things.
PK: “The liberated souls are “Krishna conscious”, not self conscious. Their consciousness is virtually one with Krishna, although it is a correct philosophical point that the jiva soul does not cease to exist.”
US: This is not at all how the acaryas describe Vraja lila. The concept of being “Krsna conscious” does not fully convey what is going on in Vraja. Vraja is all about “relationships” not “consciousness”. And relationships are the very basis for the exchange of love/prema, which is part of the overall experience of ‘rasa’.
So everyone in Vraja is fully absorbed in their “relationships” with Krsna and the unique flavors of prema that flow reciprocally from those relationships. Discussing the lila from the perspective of “consciousness” is completely missing the point and skewing the esoteric truth of these subjects.
PK: “It is thus potentially a pitfall to be thinking about one’s “future” role.”
US: This is completely contrary to what the acaryas and Srila Prabhupada have taught. The whole point of bhakti is to come to the point of awakening your desired relationship with Krsna. There is no other point, and this is precisely the process Lord Caitanya came to teach by His personal example and through the books of His acaryas, ie: raganuga-bhakti. There is no pitfall in doing so. The actual pitfall is in not understanding that one should aspire to come this stage.
CC Ādi 4.15-16 — The Lord’s desire to appear was born from two reasons: the Lord wanted to taste the sweet essence of the mellows of love of God, and He wanted to propagate devotional service in the world on the platform of spontaneous attraction (raga-marga). Thus He is known as supremely jubilant and as the most merciful of all.
CC Ādi 4.17 — [Lord Kṛṣṇa thought:] “All the universe is filled with the conception of My majesty, but love weakened by that sense of majesty does not satisfy Me.
CC Ādi 4.18 — “If one regards Me as the Supreme Lord and himself as a subordinate, I do not become subservient to his love, nor can it control Me.
CC Ādi 4.19 — “In whatever transcendental mellow My devotee worships Me, I reciprocate with him. That is My natural behavior.
CC Ādi 4.20 — “ ‘In whatever way My devotees surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows My path in all respects, O son of Pṛthā.’
CC Ādi 4.21-22 — “If one cherishes pure loving devotion to Me, thinking of Me as his son, his friend or his beloved, regarding himself as great and considering Me his equal or inferior, I become subordinate to him.
Pusta Krsna: The liberated souls are “Krishna conscious”, not self conscious.
They are both: "Recognition of oneself as a gopi spontaneously produces rati. It quicklyy produces strong rati for Krsna alone, although He has not (yet) been seen or heard of. " Ujjvala Nilamani, 14.38
They are most certainly are aware of their status as gopis. This also applies to sadhakas:
'On the raganuga-path even a sadhaka bhakta who has no rati yet can think of his own desired
siddha deha. When rati arises, then that body will be automatically revealed."
Part 2:
PK: “We have seen these topics being bantered about and they may continue to be… but for me, I pray to Krishna that He may please give me His shelter and engage me as He would like for His pleasure.”
US: This is another common misconception, ie: that we should desire to serve Krsna in Vraja how He wants us to. That is not the mentality of one engaged in raganuga, which is all about “our” desires to serve Krsna in a particular way. Krsna wants “us” to manifest “our” desires to have a particular relationship with Him. When the acaryas discuss raganuga they all use phrases like, “according to one’s preferences or taste or desires or inclinations”. They never say according to how Krsna wants you to serve Him.
That mentality applies only to sadhakas who are in an external service mode of dasanudasa. The unique thing about Vraja lila is that Krsna fulfills the desires of His devotees to love Him in a unique way – that’s what brings Him the most pleasure, ie: the personal relationship – not the “service”.
PK: “Once we separate ourselves from pleasing Krishna to take time out to contemplate what our spiritual body may be, ie spiritual rasa, may be, we run the risk of material consideration, ie prakrita sahajiya, whereby one desires to be the enjoyer. This can be avoided.”
US: This idea is not congruent with the teachings of the acaryas. To cultivate one’s desired relationship does not “separate us from pleasing Krsna”. That is ridiculous. It is precisely what pleases Him the most! That is the whole basis of raganuga-bhakti and specifically what Lord Caitanya came to teach as quoted above.
And I really wish people would stop using the “sahajiya” bogeyman card. There is a much greater and wide-spread problem with people propagating misconceptions of the correct process – as revealed in these responses – than there is a risk of becoming a sahajiya.
Let’s examine the actual facts. In BRS in the chapter on Sadhana-bhakti Rupa Gosvami explains the process of raganuga-sadhana and bhajana. Note the details regarding one’s siddha-deha:
Remembering the Vṛndāvana form of Kṛṣṇa and His dear associates who have inclinations for service similar to one’s own, absorbing oneself in hearing topics related to them, one should always live in Vraja. BRS, 1.2.294
Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one’s physical body (sādhaka-rūpa) and in one’s siddha body (siddha-rūpa), with a desire for a particular bhāva [of a Vraja associate – vraja-lokānusārataḥ]. BRS, 1.2.295
From Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Sādhaka-rūpa refers to the physical body of the practitioner. Siddha-rūpa refers to the body which is suitable for one’s desired service, “and which has been developed by internal meditation”. (siddha-rūpeṇa antas-cintitabhiṣta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena) One serves with a desire for the particular bhāva or rati of an associate of Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja.
From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:
One performs service with the sādhaka-rūpa – the present body – and with the siddha-rūpa – the body which is suitable for serving Vraja Kṛṣṇa in the particular type of rati or bhāva one desires, “and which appears through inner contemplation”, with a desire for a particular rati directed to one’s beloved Kṛṣṇa situated in Vṛndāvana.
One should follow after the dear devotees of Kṛṣṇa such as Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and those following after them – persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs. Accordingly, “one should perform mental service (mānasi-sevā) in one’s siddha-rūpa”, following after the examples of Śrī Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and others. In one’s physical body, one should perform services using one’s body, following after persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs situated in Vraja.
PK: “Srila Rupa Goswami recommended 3 things: enthusiasm, determination, and patience.”
US: This is a gross over-simplification of Rupa Gosvami’s teachings. One need only study BRS with both commentaries to learn the actual details of the process to attain bhava-bhakti and then prema-bhakti, ie: raganuga-bhakti.
Here's my response to Pusta Krsna's 2nd post:
PS: “Please be careful. Krishna consciousness is about loving Krishna. Sri Krishna reciprocates with His ecstatic loving unique ways. There are descriptions of kalpa-vriksha, wish fulfilling spiritual trees, and the like in Goloka Vrindaban. The desire of the devotee in liberation is prema-bhakti, selfless love for Krishna Who represents “Raso vai sah”. Any articles for offering are to enhance Krishna’s pleasure. He is indeed rasa, sweetness of all spiritual relationships for all.”
US: This is an incomplete understanding of Vraja lila and the relationship of Krsna with His devotees. Even though the devotees in Vraja don’t have any selfish desires for themselves, Krsna Himself desires to give pleasure and enjoyment to His devotees, even more than they do for Him. Thus, everyone there enjoys the highest ecstasies at every moment. In Srila Vyasadeva’s Vedanta-sutras it is explained thus:
The liberated jiva, if he has a body, enjoys as in the waking state. VS, 4.4.14
Baladeva Vidyabhusana’s commentary:
With a body, the jiva can enjoy (more intensely), as in the waking state. The argument that the liberated jiva has no desire is not proper because rasa, which is to be enjoyed, becomes desired by the jiva, since it is the mercy of the Lord.
Though the Lord is satisfied in Himself, He has desires to enjoy because of the desire of the devotee (to give him enjoyment). Similarly, the liberated jiva has desires for enjoying what is given as the mercy of the Lord, because of his bhakti to the Lord (accepting it to please the Lord).
PK: “Raganuga and vaidhi are conceived of by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Jaiva Dharma as different dispositions of different devotees. Ultimately, all will culminate in raganuga as it must because of the super-excellence of Krishna prema. Spontaneous non calculating love for Krishna.”
US: Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura does not “conceive” anything. He directly teaches the siddhanta given by Rupa Gosvami and the previous acaryas, as taught to them by Lord Caitanya. The difference between vaidhi and raganuga is not just the “disposition” of devotees. One must be qualified to practice raganuga, which, as I showed in my first post, requires that one has awakened their desired relationship with Krsna and has developed greed to attain that.
And it’s not an automatic given that those who are practicing vaidhi-bhakti will become qualified for raganuga because of prema. That doesn’t even make sense. One practices raganuga to “attain” prema. The intended purpose of vaidhi-bhakti is to eventually become qualified for raganuga-bhakti, and that should be everyone’s desire, but because of so many misconceptions about these subjects, most devotees do not properly understand how these things unfold or are related.
And prema is more accurately understood as love in a specific relationship, ie: dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya. “Non-calculating” has nothing to do with it. Prema is not generic – it is specifically connected to a particular type of relationship – which is why one must awaken their desired relationship first, in order to attain that type of prema. You don’t get prema first and then your relationship. It’s the other way around.
PK: “However, what I have expressed in my comment above, is Srila Prabhupad’s own expression. Sripad Prahladesh das, I think, is possibly misunderstanding what he expresses as “DESIRES” of the bhakta. The bhakta is desireless (na socati na kanshati) neither hankering for anything nor lamenting for anything material, ie for their own advantage. I am sure that the desire that Prahladesh is alluding to is purely spiritual.”
US: No one can be “desireless”. That is impossible. It is part of the svarupa of a jiva. Desireless refers only to material desires because a realized devotee is filled with spiritual desires related to their relationship with Krsna. Please refer to the quote from the Vedanta-sutras I gave above.
PK: “I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional.”
US: This is certainly utter nonsense, and it is completely against the teachings of the acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. I caution the devotee community to reject such blatant misconceptions and to learn the facts from the acaryas. I have given ample proof directly from BRS and the acaryas that this is precisely what the process is. Here are the facts as explained by Srila Prabhupada in TLC, page 318:
In this way Rāmānanda Rāya explained that one should accept the mood of the damsels of Vraja. In the Caitanya-caritāmṛta it is clearly said that one should accept the emotional activities of the associates of Kṛṣṇa, not imitate their dress. One should also always meditate upon the dealings between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa in the transcendental world.
One should think of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa twenty-four hours a day and engage in Their service within one’s mind, not externally change one’s dress. By adopting the mood of the associates and friends of Rādhārāṇī and following in their footsteps, one can ultimately achieve the perfectional stage of being transferred to Goloka Vṛndāvana, the transcendental abode of Kṛṣṇa.
And from CC, 2.8.204-205:
Without the help of the gopīs, one cannot enter into these pastimes. Only one who worships the Lord in the ecstasy of the gopīs, following in their footsteps, can engage in the service of Śrī Śrī Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa in the bushes of Vṛndāvana. Only then can one understand the conjugal love between Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa. There is no other procedure for understanding.
From Srila Prabhupada’s Purport:
The means for returning home, for going back to Godhead, is devotional service, but everyone has a different taste in the Lord’s service. One may be inclined to serve the Lord in servitude (dāsya-rasa), fraternity (sakhya-rasa) or parental love (vātsalya-rasa), but none of these can enable one to enter into the service of the Lord in conjugal love. To attain such service, one has to follow in the footsteps of the gopīs in the ecstasy of sakhī-bhāva. Then only can one understand the transcendental mellow of conjugal love.
PK: “Rather, consideration for loving and pleasing Krishna is the quality of devotion that is paramount. Srila Prabhupada hated the thought that his mission might degrade into a sahajiya movement either externally or internally on the mental plane.”
US: Srila Prabhupada was even more concerned that his disciples would not actually study his books and the books of the acaryas and as a result, they would espouse so many shocking misconceptions like we see here in this discussion.
I posted this on Dandavats but will post it here also in case it gets deleted: Pusta Krishna das said: “I caution the devotee community that if one thinks that desiring to be a gopi or other, it is a material desire for one’s own advantage, ie for one’s own pleasure. That is certainly anti-devotional.”
but…
[http://vedabase.net/nod/16/en1]:
“This development of conjugal love for Krishna is not manifested in women only. The material body has nothing to do with spiritual loving affairs. A woman may develop an attitude for becoming a friend of Krishna, and, similarly, a man may develop the feature of becoming a gopi in Vrindavana. How a devotee in the form of a man can desire to become a gopi is stated in the Padma Purana as follows: In days gone by there were many sages in Dandakaranya. Dandakaranya is the name of the forest where Lord Ramacandra lived after being banished by His father for fourteen years. At that time there were many advanced sages who were captivated by the beauty of Lord Ramacandra and who desired to become women in order to embrace the Lord. Later on, these sages appeared in Goloka Vrindavana when Krishna advented Himself there, and they were born as gopis, or girl friends of Krishna. In this way they attained the perfection of spiritual life.
The story of the sages of Dandakaranya can be explained as follows. When Lord Ramacandra was residing in Dandakaranya, the sages who were engaged in devotional service there became attracted by His beauty and immediately thought of the gopis at Vrindavana, who enjoyed conjugal loving affection with Krishna. In this instance it is clear that the sages of Dandakaranya desired conjugal love in the manner of the gopis, although they were well aware of the Supreme Lord as both Krishna and Lord Ramacandra. They knew that although Ramacandra was an ideal king and could not accept more than one wife, Lord Krishna, being the full-fledged Personality of Godhead, could fulfill the desires of all of them in Vrindavana. These sages also concluded that the form of Lord Krishna is more attractive than that of Lord Ramacandra, and so they prayed to become gopis in their future lives to be associated with Krishna.
Lord Ramacandra remained silent, and His silence shows that He accepted the prayers of the sages. Thus they were blessed by Lord Ramacandra to have association with Lord Krishna in their future lives. As a result of this benediction, they all took birth as women in the wombs of gopis at Gokula, and as they had desired in their previous lives, they enjoyed the company of Lord Krishna, who was present at that time in Gokula Vrindavana. The perfection of their human form of life was thus achieved by their generating a transcendental sentiment to share conjugal love with Lord Krishna.”
In the beginning of devotional life, without ruci, we are performing vaidhi bhakti under the guidance of our guru. Vaidhi bhakti is meant to purify our heart, to soften it. It is expected that by following the rules and regulations, a desire WILL arise to serve Sri Krsna in a particular mood. That mood comes by hearing Krsna leela and how the Lord is being served by His eternally liberated associates.
The condition of the devotees heart at that time may still be showing signs of material influence. Outwardly, the devotee continues to practice vaidhi bhakti but inwardly he is developing his taste to serve Krsna in a particular way. Gradually, with the help of the Lord, external attachments begin to lose their importance and the internal connection with the Lord becomes established as an irrevocable fact. This happens because the taste for serving Krsna is far superior than the taste for serving material relationships.
Srila Prabhupada, echoing the sentiment and words of the previous acharyas, has always taught that if you give a man something nice to eat, he will lose his interest for eating plain beans. Similarly, a devotee cannot be desireless. But if he has developed a taste for Krsna bhajan, then the desire for material relationships falls away because it has been replaced by a superior relationship.
A devotee does not first become liberated before developing a taste to serve Krsna. No. First he is developed in his mood of eternal service and then liberation follows him like a maidservant. Devotees do not strive for liberation. We strive for service. Krsna grants the sincere bhakta entrance into His leela which then removes any material darkness from his heart.
It is impersonalism if we think otherwise. Our mission is not liberation. If we strive for liberation, then our heart will become hard and unfit for Krsna prem. This is the confidential teaching of Rupa Goswami. Only the devotees of the Lord actually achieve liberation because their goal is unalloyed devotion. Impersonalists may think they have become liberated but they fall back because they have neglected the Lord's lotus feet.
All glories to Hari, Guru and Vaishnavas.
That's the result of focusing too much on making followers and fund raising while neglecting the knowledge coming down the parampara in the form of acharyas'granthas.
“Anyone who faithfully hears or describes the Lord’s playful affairs with the young gopis of Vrndavana will attain the Lord’s pure devotional service. Thus he will quickly become sober and conquer lust, the disease of the heart.”
[http://www.vedabase.com/en/sb/10/33/39]
“Words that do not describe the transcendental Lord but instead deal with temporary
matters are simply false, harsh and useless. Only those words that manifest the qualities of
the Supreme Lord are actually truthful, auspicious and pure.” [SB 12.12.49]
Speaking for myself, I am so tired of this material “Bhava” for material temporary things that always change and go away. I want to feel, in my heart, real spiritual blissful electrifying ecstatic Bhava for Krsna who is permanent and eternal. I want to invest all my love, energies and time into Krsna as He will not deceived me like all these material temporary illusions.
How can I develop Bhava for Krsna if I know nothing about Him and His sweet pastimes?
How can I stop my attraction for material temporary illusions if I do not feel real love and attraction for Krsna?
PK: “Your spiritual future is not merely the culmination of your current aspirations.”
US: Not “merely”? According to our acaryas that is precisely what the essence of the process of raganuga-bhakti is. The key aspect of raganuga-sadhana-bhajana is to focus your intense longing on your desired relationship with Krsna while remembering Vraja lila. Here are a few references. From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
From Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita:
In his internal meditation, the sādhaka serves the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa in a particular rasa, with a form, dress, and so on that are suitable for his service. Achieving perfection at the end of his life, he enters Vaikuṇṭha. At that time, his heart is attracted to that previous rasa in which, while he was in the sādhaka stage, he worshiped the Lord, and he accepts an identical dress and form, knowing them to be dear to Śrī Bhagavān. BB, 2.4.145-146
From Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Whoever comes to Vaikuṇṭha realizes the very same service to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa for which he had developed a taste by the end of his material life, and he realizes that service in full detail, with its dress, form, and so on, for each mood of devotion is dear to the Personality of Godhead and each gives pleasure to the devotee absorbed in it.
PK: “The mercy of Sri Krishna and His confidantes is essential.”
US: Mercy is always a constant factor and I didn’t minimize that in anything I said before. In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (BRS), raganuga-bhakti is said to be the path of mercy:
The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy). BRS, 1.2.309
PK: “If you are so inclined, obtain a copy of my book “God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker.” Read Chapter 6. Everyone has their experience, and in addition to offering my “two cents” (apparently not of much value to the above discussion), you might benefit from a fortunate bhakta’s experience.”
US: I read your post on Dandavats about your book and your vision of Krsna or Visnu. I have no doubt it was a life-changing and wonderful experience for you. That is your great good fortune to be blessed like that. I know a number of devotees who have had similar experiences.
Nevertheless, that does not mean that you or anyone else are exempt from the necessity to engage in the specific processes taught by Lord Caitanya to our acaryas, ie: raganuga-bhakti, if you want to actually enter into Vraja lila in a personal relationship with Krsna, which is the goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It is quite clear from your posts that your understanding of this aspect of our philosophy is not entirely in sync with the acaryas, and in some cases it is way off, as was pointed out. To rectify that, you might also benefit from reading my book: The Realization and Manifestation of Your Eternal Identity – Identity Transformation Through Raganuga-bhakti. Contact me on Facebook and I’ll send you a free copy.
PK “Then if you still have the conviction to give your erudite critique, so be it.”
US: Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? :-) That would be a bit ironic considering your emphasis on your qualifications as a doctor and scientist regarding your book’s authoritative status, in that Dandavat’s article. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to become very well versed in this philosophy, not as an academic endeavor, but as part of our deep devotional sadhana and bhajana, which is precisely the approach I took.
PK: “But you will need to see the Center of the target. Krishna is naturally the essence of all rasa, and His love and friendship, His mercy, may astound you.”
US: Why are you assuming that these attributes of Krsna don’t already astound me, or that I don’t see the center of the target?
PK: “One must be free from envy, nirmatsaram, as the worship of the inhabitants of Vraja and their moods of devotion, frees one from subtle delusion. After you have read it, perhaps your insight will expand.”
US: I hope you will also attain some expanded insight as well if you get a chance to read my book.
PK: “Your spiritual future is not merely the culmination of your current aspirations.”
US: Not “merely”? According to our acaryas that is precisely what the essence of the process of raganuga-bhakti is. The key aspect of raganuga-sadhana-bhajana is to focus your intense longing on your desired relationship with Krsna while remembering Vraja lila. Here are a few references. From Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura’s Prema-bhakti-candrikā:
I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. Whatever I think of during my spiritual practice (sādhana) I will attain in my siddha-deha when I reach perfection. This is the means of rāga-bhakti. PBC, 55
The treasure I desire as a practitioner I will get when I attain my spiritual body (siddha-deha); it is just a question of being ripe or unripe. The ripe stage is the stage of pure devotion (prema-bhakti), and the unripe stage is the stage of practice (sādhana-bhakti). That is the essential truth about devotional principles. PBC, 56
From Sanatana Gosvami’s Brihad-bhagavatamrita:
In his internal meditation, the sādhaka serves the lotus feet of Śrī Kṛṣṇa in a particular rasa, with a form, dress, and so on that are suitable for his service. Achieving perfection at the end of his life, he enters Vaikuṇṭha. At that time, his heart is attracted to that previous rasa in which, while he was in the sādhaka stage, he worshiped the Lord, and he accepts an identical dress and form, knowing them to be dear to Śrī Bhagavān. BB, 2.4.145-146
From Sanātana Gosvāmī’s commentary:
Whoever comes to Vaikuṇṭha realizes the very same service to the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa for which he had developed a taste by the end of his material life, and he realizes that service in full detail, with its dress, form, and so on, for each mood of devotion is dear to the Personality of Godhead and each gives pleasure to the devotee absorbed in it.
PK: “The mercy of Sri Krishna and His confidantes is essential.”
US: Mercy is always a constant factor and I didn’t minimize that in anything I said before. In Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (BRS), raganuga-bhakti is said to be the path of mercy:
The only causes of the appearance of greed are the mercy of Kṛṣṇa or His devotee. Therefore, some call the path of rāgānugā-bhakti, pusti mārga (the path of mercy). BRS, 1.2.309
PK: “If you are so inclined, obtain a copy of my book “God Is Not Dead, The Testimony of a Fortunate Seeker.” Read Chapter 6. Everyone has their experience, and in addition to offering my “two cents” (apparently not of much value to the above discussion), you might benefit from a fortunate bhakta’s experience.”
US: I read your post on Dandavats about your book and your vision of Krsna or Visnu. I have no doubt it was a life-changing and wonderful experience for you. That is your great good fortune to be blessed like that. I know a number of devotees who have had similar experiences.
Nevertheless, that does not mean that you or anyone else are exempt from the necessity to engage in the specific processes taught by Lord Caitanya to our acaryas, ie: raganuga-bhakti, if you want to actually enter into Vraja lila in a personal relationship with Krsna, which is the goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. It is quite clear from your posts that your understanding of this aspect of our philosophy is not entirely in sync with the acaryas, and in some cases it is way off, as was pointed out. To rectify that, you might also benefit from reading my book: The Realization and Manifestation of Your Eternal Identity – Identity Transformation Through Raganuga-bhakti. Contact me on Facebook and I’ll send you a free copy.
PK “Then if you still have the conviction to give your erudite critique, so be it.”
US: Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? :-) That would be a bit ironic considering your emphasis on your qualifications as a doctor and scientist regarding your book’s authoritative status, in that Dandavat’s article. Srila Prabhupada wanted us to become very well versed in this philosophy, not as an academic endeavor, but as part of our deep devotional sadhana and bhajana, which is precisely the approach I took.
PK: “But you will need to see the Center of the target. Krishna is naturally the essence of all rasa, and His love and friendship, His mercy, may astound you.”
US: Why are you assuming that these attributes of Krsna don’t already astound me, or that I don’t see the center of the target?
PK: “One must be free from envy, nirmatsaram, as the worship of the inhabitants of Vraja and their moods of devotion, frees one from subtle delusion. After you have read it, perhaps your insight will expand.”
US: I hope you will also attain some expanded insight as well if you get a chance to read my book.
