See, I'm not saying that Prabhupada can not be a priya narma sakha.
Although a priya narma sakha is attracted by sakhi bhava, I do not think he will appeal to have a conjugal relationship (sthayi-bhava) with Krsna.
Another point to consider is that all the devotees who are not situated in manjari bhava and are followers of Sri Caitanya receive simultaneously one manjari svarupa.
We should not disregard the possibility of multiple svarupas to Prabhupada.
My two cents only.
Exactly, though priya narma sakhas experience sakhya bhava, definitely they have no desire to conjugal relationship with Krsna.
This ONLY the sakhis have.
In relation to multiple svarupas we can mention Dhananjaya Pandita (certainly there are others) that has 3 svarupas simultaneously:
1 - Svarupa in gaura lila as dhanajaya pandita.
2 - Svarupa in Krsna lila as vasudama sakha.
3 - Svarupa in Krsna lila as madana manjari.
Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhashya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
Commentary by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana - Vedanta Sutra 4.4.12:
"He becomes one. Then he becomes two. Then three. Then five. Then seven. Then nine. Then eleven. He becomes one hundred and ten. He becomes one thousand and twenty...
...The mukta has both a body and a bodiless nature because the scriptures describe them in both ways. A technical example of a Vedic sacrifice is given to illustrate this point. However, due to the muktas’ release from the body and their quality of ‘satya-sankalpa’ (having their wishes realised instantaneously), attain a body by the force of their mere will, and they can have as many as they like."
vṛndāraṇyāntarasthaḥ sarasa vilasitenātmanām ātmānam uccair
ānanda syanda vandīkṛta manasam urīkṛtya nitya pramodaḥ
vṛndāraṇyaika niṣṭhān svaruci sama tanūn kārayiṣyāmi yusmān
ityevās te’vaśiṣṭam kim api mama mahat karma tac cātaniṣye
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 72) Text 280 in some versions
“O ācārya! I’m always absorbed in My blissful luscious pastimes, residing in Vṛndāvana, and I will give you all (spiritual) bodies suitable for joining Me (according to your own taste) in these Vṛndāvana-pastimes. That one remaining great duty I will swiftly perform!”
api ca—
dāsye kecana kecana praṇayinaḥ sakhyaika evobhaye
rādhā-mādhava-naiṣṭhikāḥ katipaye śrī-dvārakādhīśituḥ
sakhyādāv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vāvatārāntare
mayy ābaddha-hṛdo’khilān vitanavai vṛndāvanāsaṅginaḥ
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 281 in some versions
“Those of you whose hearts are bound to Me in this form of Sri Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, even if your rasas are friendship or servitude to Shri Shri Radha-Madhava or Lord Dvarakadhisha, or if your rasas are friendship or servitude to any of My other incarnations, I will make into My eternally liberated associates in Goloka Vrindavana.”
tathāstu—
nijecchayā prāpaya yad yad eva
sthalāntaraṁ no vapur antaraṁ vā |
tavaitad āścarya-caritram eva
jātismarā eva ciraṁ smarāmaḥ (Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 282 in some versions.
Advaita Acarya says “So be it. By Your desire, may You give us all different eternal forms and different eternal residences. We will eternally remember Your wonderful transcendental pastimes.”
I think there is no rasabhasa because is the same jiva but in different svarupas.
nteresting.. the verse of sri caitanya candrodaya says: "EVEN IF your rasas are friendship or servitude to Shri Shri Radha-Madhava” and thus we can clearly see that he is promising Madhurya Rasa.
No doubt that to practice raganuga sadhana we have to focus on only one rasa that can not be madhurya. what I think is that those in other rasas receive a bonus manjari svarupa.
Well, at least Nityananda Prabhu have multiple svarupas. Nityananda=Balarama=Ananga Manjari.
It is true. although anaga manjari has manjari in her name, I think she is not in the category of manjari.
I wonder what happens when ananga manjari meets balarama at the same time in front of krsna? They are the same person.
rasabhasa?
Please help me to understand. it is said that balarama participates in all rasas in krsna lila. How does balarama serve krsna in madhurya rasa?
So because balarama cannot serve in a male form, He expands as ananga manjari.
Rasabhasa? No. Two svarupas to the same personality in the same lila.
"But although Arjuna is with Krishna in innumerable different material universes at one time, still there is only one spirit soul who is Arjuna. This spirit soul expands into many different bodies and thus you can understand that there are also incarnations of devotees as well as incarnations of Krishna.
This is the power of the spirit soul, that it is unlimited. Such conception cannot be understood while one is still in the conditioned state.
Letter of Srila Prabhupada to Saradiya, 1968"
But the argument that the tatastha jivas can not have multiple svarupas not apply, because according Bhaktivinoda Thakur tatastha jivas have at least 2 svarupas.
mmmmm.....
"Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.” (SBSST)
How do devotees which have parental love for example become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love?
Uttamasloka Dasa
yes, but we will be serving sri caitanya in gaura lila in dasya rasa. And in krsna lila, for example, in madhurya rasa.
And so, during the sadhana we should meditate on our svarupa in gaura lila as a kaisora brahmana (male).
And in krsna lila we should meditate on our svarupa as kisori manjari (female, in the case of those in madhurya).
At least 2 svarupas and 2 rasas. The same jiva (tatastha jiva).
"Q. In the Caitanya-caritamrta, in identifying certain personalities with their counterparts in Krsna lila, it is mentioned that a particular personality in Caitanya lila corresponds to two different personalities in Krsna lila. I don't understand. Do spiritual personalities merge and split, combine and recombine?
A. by Swami Tripurari - There is considerable subjectivity involved in bhakti. For example, some devotees see Krnsa as their dear most friend, whereas others feel the highest ideal is to be intimately involved in conjugal love with him. Each feels his ideal is best, and for the respective practitioner it is. Kavi Karnapura sees Gadadhara as Radha fully endowed with her bhava, whereas Krsnadasa Kaviraja sees him in a slightly different way, her bhava stolen by Mahaprabhu leaving Gadadhara with a submissive loving sentiment. Both are correct, for their vision is a result of their own bhava. This means that Krsna shows different things about himself and his associates to different devotees.
Liberated souls can have two or more spiritual identities. However, many of the descriptions of Kavi Karnapura in his Gaura gonnodesa dipika involve tracing similar sentiments (bhava) in one associate of Mahaprabhu with those of two or more members of Krsna lila, and this at perhaps different times. This does not necessarily mean that the associate of Mahaprabhu is in fact those two souls of Krsna lila appearing as one in Gaura lila, ALTHOUGH THIS POSSIBILITY DOES EXIST." (caps lock mine)
Many other eternal associates of the Lord have several identities both in Vaikhunta as well as in Vraja Lila and in Srishti Lila (creation).
As with Advaita Acharya, both Maha Vishnu as Sada Siva does not cease to exist when Advaita Acharya takes His Vraja Svarupa.
Svarupa-sakti jivas can have several forms in several rasas. Narada Muni, who is in dasya-rasa, also has a gopi form. He is identified with Madhumangala as well.
I do not want to force anything. But I think tatastha Jivas when they reach siddha may also have multiple svarupas in one lila. And this on the basis of Sri caitanya candrodaya of kavi karnapura.
Uttamasloka Dasa, I have a doubt. Vedanta sutra 4.4.12 refers to muktas. Why Mukta Jivas want to have many material bodies?
Again:
api ca—
dāsye kecana kecana praṇayinaḥ sakhyaika evobhaye
rādhā-mādhava-naiṣṭhikāḥ katipaye śrī-dvārakādhīśituḥ
sakhyādāv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vāvatārāntare
mayy ābaddha-hṛdo’khilān vitanavai vṛndāvanāsaṅginaḥ
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 281 in some versions
“Those of you whose hearts are bound to Me in this form of Sri Chaitanya Mahāprabhu, even if your rasas are friendship or servitude to Shri Shri Radha-Madhava or Lord Dvarakadhisha, or if your rasas are friendship or servitude to any of My other incarnations, I will make into My eternally liberated associates in Goloka Vrindavana.”
Please, let me know if this translation is correct.
There is no rejection of the particular Sthayi Bhava which has been attained. There may be evolution and expansion into multiforms under the divine arrangements of the Svarupa Sakti, but there is no rejection of that which was perfectly attained. So, no rasabhasa.
We may understand that many Parshadas have multiple Svarupas for participating in a variety of pastimes.
So I keep my point that Prabhupada, as nitya siddha can have multiple svarupas in the same lila.
It can also be interpreted to mean that if they have rasas in other lilas they can be 'promoted' to madhurya-rasa in Vraja lila by Lord Caitanya's mercy. But there is no indication that this promotion also includes them remaining in their previous rasa simultaneously.
The verse of sri caitanya candrodaya says: "EVEN IF your rasas are friendship or servitude to Sri Sri Radha-Madhava” and thus we can clearly see that he is promising Madhurya Rasa.
Advaita Acarya says “So be it. By Your desire, may You give us all different eternal forms and different eternal residences. We will eternally remember Your wonderful transcendental pastimes.”
Advaita Acarya is giving indication that this promotion also includes them remaining in their previous rasa simultaneously and in the same lila.
"may You give us all different eternal forms".
A form as a friend of Radha Madhava and another form as a gopi of Radha Madhava.
It refers to jivan-muktas, ie: liberated jivas who are still embodied in the material world
In the previous sutra of Vedanta Sutra 4.4.11:
"In the Bhuma-vidya passage of the Chandogya Upanisad (7.26.2) it is said that the liberated soul can manifest many different bodies simultaneously.
Because the individual spirit soul is atomic in nature, it cannot expand itself to become many different bodies, so these bodies must be possessions of the atomic soul. Nor can it be said that this statement of the Upanisad is not true, for this is in a passage describing the process of liberation. The body described here must actually exist, and also it must not have been created by past karmic reactions."
Now if these jivan muktas can manifest various material bodies simultaneously, why could they not express simultaneously various spiritual bodies? Ok. At the end of VS'purport 4.4.12 BV says it's a spiritual body. But this does not exclude the possibility since we know that the jiva can have at least 2 svarupas. That the jiva can have multiple svarupas is evident. The power of a liberated soul is immense. What is at issue here is if jiva can have simultaneous svarupas in the same lila. and according to the sri caitanya candrodaya of kavi karnapura this seems to be possible.
The verse of sri caitanya candrodaya says: "EVEN IF your rasas are friendship or servitude to Sri Sri Radha-Madhava” and thus we can clearly see that he is promising Madhurya Rasa.
Advaita acarya answer: “So be it. By Your desire, may You give us all different eternal forms".
There is no scope in the acaryas' teachings for one to aspire for multiple sthayi-bhava
yes, no doubt. this promotion for a simultaneous svarupa only occurs after the jiva attain perfection. during the sadhana stage only aspires for one sthayi bhava.
here I would like to make it clear that I am not claiming anything as definitive. probably this is speculation on my part. just it seems to me that on the spiritual platform everything is possible. that's all.
We may understand that many Parshadas have multiple Svarupas for participating in a variety of pastimes.
There are some exceptions, but they are not the norm and they usually involve those in higher category of tattva like Balarama, not sadhana-siddhas.
sadhana siddha can have at least 2 svarupas simultaneously in two different lilas as per BVT.
And this brings up another issue, ie: is Srila Prabhupada a nitya-siddha or sadhana-siddha?
when I say that Prabhupada is a nitya siddha, I am saying sadhana Sidha. a devotee that by practice has become siddha.
Yes, the sthayi-bhava of narada muni is dasya-rasa and ... he has another form of gopi. Very good !!!
Bv Damodara, please if it is not a lot of work, give us the translation to these verses, and I will not have anything else to say. thank you.
vṛndāraṇyāntarasthaḥ sarasa vilasitenātmanām ātmānam uccair
ānanda syanda vandīkṛta manasam urīkṛtya nitya pramodaḥ
vṛndāraṇyaika niṣṭhān svaruci sama tanūn kārayiṣyāmi yusmān
ityevās te’vaśiṣṭam kim api mama mahat karma tac cātaniṣye
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 72) Text 280 in some versions
api ca—
dāsye kecana kecana praṇayinaḥ sakhyaika evobhaye
rādhā-mādhava-naiṣṭhikāḥ katipaye śrī-dvārakādhīśituḥ
sakhyādāv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vāvatārāntare
mayy ābaddha-hṛdo’khilān vitanavai vṛndāvanāsaṅginaḥ
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 281 in some versions
tathāstu—
nijecchayā prāpaya yad yad eva
sthalāntaraṁ no vapur antaraṁ vā |
tavaitad āścarya-caritram eva
jātismarā eva ciraṁ smarāmaḥ (Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 282 in some versions.
And a litte comment about that:
Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhashya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
How do devotees which have parental love for example become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love?
no one can have multiple forms on different rasas
Is gopisvara mahadeva an eternal form of siva or not?
Is siva only trying to taste that thing, or does he really have an eternal form of gopisvara mahadeva?
"If we study Bhagavatam in its entirety we see that paradigmatically speaking, Siva represents jnana-misra bhakti, devotion mixed with knowledge. And above jnana-misra bhakti is Prahlada, suddha bhakti, pure devotion. This is shown in Sanatana Goswami’s commentary, Brhad Bhagavatamrta, which is an explanation of Srimad-Bhagavatam, showing the gradation of all the different religious conceptions. So it goes in the highest realm to the gopis. But there we find Siva also: Mahadeva Gopisvara. Siva desires to become a gopi.
We should note this about all the great persons in the Bhagavatam like Prahlada and Narada. They are representing something theologically but that representation does not entirely represent their personhood, potential, or prospect in spiritual life. Therefore the Gaudiya Vaisnavas also find them all in Krishna lila. Narada Kunda is there, where Narada bathed and came out as a gopi. Lord Siva appeared as a gopi and gopa also, Gopisvara and Gopesvara. The famous Mahadeva Gopisvara temple is in Vrindavan, and in that lila Siva is said to have desired to become a gopi and enter the rasa dance, but ultimately was posted at the gate as a guard." (Swami Tripurari)
naradiya gopi is the form of gopi of narada muni. is this form of naradiya gopi eternal or not?
Is narada only trying to taste that thing, or does he really have an eternal form of naradiya gopi?
"Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Uddhava will not attain a gopi body. Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms."
Srila Prabhupada, Teachings of Lord Caitanya ch. 17:
"There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."
Again, how do pure devotees which have parental love for example become situated within the intimate circle of confidential devotees in conjugal love?
And more. It is quite clear from sastra that narada was a conditioned jiva in a previous life.
So, if in fact he is classified as svarupa sakti, then he attained that position from the ranks of the conditioned souls.
=Narada must only have played the role of being conditioned.=
Maybe and perhaps.....
"The idea is that most of the gurus are sadhana-siddha, the others are nitya-siddhas. All are siddhas. The nitya-siddha is more rare, but not better, for both are siddha. The sadhana-siddha is one who becomes a siddha through sadhana and then serves in the capacity of guru. Narada Muni is a sadhana-siddha. His story is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Swami Tripurari)
=I would accept Srila Prabhodananda Saraswati's opinion about Shivas's and Narada's gopi forms.=
Yes, but gopisvara mahadeva and naradiya gopi are eternal forms of siva and narada.
The sthayi-bhava of narada muni is dasya-rasa and ... he has another form of gopi.
=If you say Narada's form as a gopi is eternal, that means you agree he is a nitya-parsada.=
When a sadhaka reaches his perfect spiritual body (svarupa), this body is eternal. So, narada muni is a sadhana-siddha.
=With this logic everything is up for grabs. Maybe Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode also have sakhya rasa svarupas, or perhaps they also have svarupas in vatsalya rasa, etc. etc. And you support this with a misunderstanding of the implications of Gaura-gonnodesa-dipika and the notion of multiple svarupas for liberated souls=
A Gaudiya Vaisnava in madhurya rasa will not need a simultaneous svarupa. Only those in rasas not madhurya will receive svarupas in madhurya.
=Regarding Narada, he is a complex figure. Indeed Jiva Goswami comments in Krama-sandarbha...=
Here maharaja is giving his opinion that he do not see his guru to be like narada or other paradimatic figures of the bhagavatam that follow bhagavan in his various avataras appearing in numerous forms and expanding into different personalities in different rasas.
Which we respect.
Maharaja is not saying here that there cannot be multiple svarupas.
Regarding the second part:
=Prabhupada writes, “Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityānanda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality (not always). When such devotees (devotees of Nityananda and Advaita) develop great attachment for Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
...I do not think Prabhupada means to say that the devotees in sakhya rasa of Nitai, for example, gradually develop conjugal love by the association of Sri Caitainya.=
Here maharaja is responding to the devotee who said something about changing one rasa to another or evolving through rasa. And we agree. A devotee does not abandon one rasa and assumes another. This is another topic.
The topic that we were talking about is the possibility of multiple svarupas simultaneously.
And the possibility exists and it is called svarupa vyuha !!!
"But you make the mistake of describing nitya siddha as higher devotees than sadhana siddhas ... The two are different, no doubt. I could see how one could argue that the nitya siddha ragatmika is higher in that such devotees are to be followed by sadhana siddhas. Then again Sanatana Goswami has argued that the sadhana siddhas are better because their love has been tested! So I prefer not to look at one as higher than the other. Both are siddha, that’s all. And that is how Prabhupada dealt with the issue."
=we do not find Rupa Goswami saying anything in BRS abut cultivating multiple svarupas.=
of course we do not find. sadhakas cultivate only one bhava in only one rasa. multiple svarupas, if it happens it is after.
=and still hoping for an explanation of the Caitanya-candrodaya verses=
Me too
I'm just asking. What does it mean?
"Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I am a follower of Sri Subala. I know that you will consider my eligibility to hear about madhurya-rasa and instruct me appropriately.
Gosvami: The priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree. I will keep your qualification in mind and speak whatever is appropriate for you - not more, and I will say nothing unsuitable." (Srila Bhaktivinoda JD 30)
Indeed.
but after in the end of the same chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
and therefore sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa because priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree.
and for real, guru goswami explained madhurya rasa only for vijaya and not to vrajanatha.
Well, gaudiya vaisnavas sadhakas meditate in two svarupas ... simultaneously !!!
"Vrajanatha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed bhaktas of Sri Gaura-Kisora (Caitanya Mahaprabhu)?
Babaji: Sri Krsna and Sri Gaura Kisora are non different in their tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of madhurya-rasa. However, there is a slight difference between Them because madhurya-rasa has two prakosts (chambers). One is the mood of madhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audarya (magnanimity).
Sri Krsna’s svarupa is manifest where madhurya is prominent, and Sri Gauranga’s form is manifest where audarya is prominent. Similarly, the transcendental Vrndavana also has two prakosts (divisions): Sri Krsna’s abode and Sri Gaura’s abode. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Sri Krsna’s abode are attracted first to madhurya, and then to audarya. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Sri Gaura’s abode are blissfully absorbed in audarya, and then madhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other.
Those who only worship Sri Gaura during their period of sadhana, only serve Sri Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Sri Krsna during their period of sadhana serve Sri Krsna on achieving perfection. However, those who worship the forms of both Sri Krsna and Sri Gaura during their period of sadhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Sri Gaura and Sri Krsna is a very confidential secret.
When Vrajanatha had heard all these teachings about the state of the jivas who are liberated from maya, he could no longer keep his composure." (JD C17)
Yes, this is not two rasas in Vraja lila. But the power of the siddhas is immense.
Dhananjaya Pandita is Vasudama and Madana Manjari.
"eligible for srngara-rasa to some extent" and "permitted to participate" to an "extremely restricted degree" ... for me is the same.
besides that:
but after in the end of the same chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
and therefore sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa because priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree OR "eligible for srngara-rasa to some extent".
and for real, guru goswami explained madhurya rasa only for vijaya and not to vrajanatha.
I think prabhupada asked his followers to study his books and the books of the previous acaryas. and surely "evolving through rasa" is a tremendous amount of speculation and confusion.
=This does not mean that those two devotees, ie: Vasudama and Madana-manjari are the same person. That is not the import of that statement.=
Yes, it could mean that dhananjaya pandita just has some characteristics of vasudama and some characteristics of madana manjari ... or not.
Who knows !!!
We know that siddhas can have amsas and can participate in different lilas with different svarupas and some of them in the same lila.
=We must be very careful when understanding the possibility of two simultaneous forms- one to serve in Gaura lila and one to serve in Krsna lila. This is a very high concept based on the complete attraction for two different forms of the Lord.=
Gauranga Lila and Govinda Lila should be worshiped simultaneously, because when the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sadhakas attain perfection they get two spiritual bodies.
Generally, when achieve spiritual perfection, a living entity has only one svarupa (transcendental body).
However, in many cases, the ultimate destination of the Srila Rupa Goswami's followers is to get two spiritual Svarupas:
1) A majestically beautiful form of Kisori (female) Manjari Gopi (in general), to serve Radha Govinda in the association of other Sakhis and Manjaris of Vraja.
2) A wonderfully golden form of Kisora (male) to serve Lord Gaurasundara and His associates in Navadvipa Dhama.
The most fortunate devotee will participate simultaneously in these Lilas to eternally serve the Lord.
=serving in Krsna leela with two different forms and two different rasas=
siddhas want to serve krsna more and more and more ... especially the same rasa of caitanya mahaprabhu (madhurya) in the ETERNAL navadvipa (svetadvipa), and then, they are included in the intimate circle of conjugal devotees without losing their previous sthayi bhava.
It can also be interpreted to mean that if they have rasas in other lilas they can be 'promoted' to madhurya-rasa in Vraja lila by Lord Caitanya's mercy. But there is no indication that this promotion also includes them remaining in their previous rasa simultaneously.
The verse of sri caitanya candrodaya says: "EVEN IF your rasas are friendship or servitude to Sri Sri Radha-Madhava” and thus we can clearly see that he is promising Madhurya Rasa.
Advaita Acarya says “So be it. By Your desire, may You give us all different eternal forms and different eternal residences. We will eternally remember Your wonderful transcendental pastimes.”
Advaita Acarya is giving indication that this promotion also includes them remaining in their previous rasa simultaneously and in the same lila.
"may You give us all different eternal forms".
A form as a friend of Radha Madhava and another form as a gopi of Radha Madhava.
It refers to jivan-muktas, ie: liberated jivas who are still embodied in the material world
In the previous sutra of Vedanta Sutra 4.4.11:
"In the Bhuma-vidya passage of the Chandogya Upanisad (7.26.2) it is said that the liberated soul can manifest many different bodies simultaneously.
Because the individual spirit soul is atomic in nature, it cannot expand itself to become many different bodies, so these bodies must be possessions of the atomic soul. Nor can it be said that this statement of the Upanisad is not true, for this is in a passage describing the process of liberation. The body described here must actually exist, and also it must not have been created by past karmic reactions."
Now if these jivan muktas can manifest various material bodies simultaneously, why could they not express simultaneously various spiritual bodies? Ok. At the end of VS'purport 4.4.12 BV says it's a spiritual body. But this does not exclude the possibility since we know that the jiva can have at least 2 svarupas. That the jiva can have multiple svarupas is evident. The power of a liberated soul is immense. What is at issue here is if jiva can have simultaneous svarupas in the same lila. and according to the sri caitanya candrodaya of kavi karnapura this seems to be possible.
The verse of sri caitanya candrodaya says: "EVEN IF your rasas are friendship or servitude to Sri Sri Radha-Madhava” and thus we can clearly see that he is promising Madhurya Rasa.
Advaita acarya answer: “So be it. By Your desire, may You give us all different eternal forms".
There is no scope in the acaryas' teachings for one to aspire for multiple sthayi-bhava
yes, no doubt. this promotion for a simultaneous svarupa only occurs after the jiva attain perfection. during the sadhana stage only aspires for one sthayi bhava.
here I would like to make it clear that I am not claiming anything as definitive. probably this is speculation on my part. just it seems to me that on the spiritual platform everything is possible. that's all.
We may understand that many Parshadas have multiple Svarupas for participating in a variety of pastimes.
There are some exceptions, but they are not the norm and they usually involve those in higher category of tattva like Balarama, not sadhana-siddhas.
sadhana siddha can have at least 2 svarupas simultaneously in two different lilas as per BVT.
And this brings up another issue, ie: is Srila Prabhupada a nitya-siddha or sadhana-siddha?
when I say that Prabhupada is a nitya siddha, I am saying sadhana Sidha. a devotee that by practice has become siddha.
Yes, the sthayi-bhava of narada muni is dasya-rasa and ... he has another form of gopi. Very good !!!
Bv Damodara, please if it is not a lot of work, give us the translation to these verses, and I will not have anything else to say. thank you.
vṛndāraṇyāntarasthaḥ sarasa vilasitenātmanām ātmānam uccair
ānanda syanda vandīkṛta manasam urīkṛtya nitya pramodaḥ
vṛndāraṇyaika niṣṭhān svaruci sama tanūn kārayiṣyāmi yusmān
ityevās te’vaśiṣṭam kim api mama mahat karma tac cātaniṣye
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 72) Text 280 in some versions
api ca—
dāsye kecana kecana praṇayinaḥ sakhyaika evobhaye
rādhā-mādhava-naiṣṭhikāḥ katipaye śrī-dvārakādhīśituḥ
sakhyādāv ubhayatra kecana pare ye vāvatārāntare
mayy ābaddha-hṛdo’khilān vitanavai vṛndāvanāsaṅginaḥ
(Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 281 in some versions
tathāstu—
nijecchayā prāpaya yad yad eva
sthalāntaraṁ no vapur antaraṁ vā |
tavaitad āścarya-caritram eva
jātismarā eva ciraṁ smarāmaḥ (Śrī Caitanya Candrodaya Act X, 73) Text 282 in some versions.
And a litte comment about that:
Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhashya: “There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
How do devotees which have parental love for example become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love?
no one can have multiple forms on different rasas
Is gopisvara mahadeva an eternal form of siva or not?
Is siva only trying to taste that thing, or does he really have an eternal form of gopisvara mahadeva?
"If we study Bhagavatam in its entirety we see that paradigmatically speaking, Siva represents jnana-misra bhakti, devotion mixed with knowledge. And above jnana-misra bhakti is Prahlada, suddha bhakti, pure devotion. This is shown in Sanatana Goswami’s commentary, Brhad Bhagavatamrta, which is an explanation of Srimad-Bhagavatam, showing the gradation of all the different religious conceptions. So it goes in the highest realm to the gopis. But there we find Siva also: Mahadeva Gopisvara. Siva desires to become a gopi.
We should note this about all the great persons in the Bhagavatam like Prahlada and Narada. They are representing something theologically but that representation does not entirely represent their personhood, potential, or prospect in spiritual life. Therefore the Gaudiya Vaisnavas also find them all in Krishna lila. Narada Kunda is there, where Narada bathed and came out as a gopi. Lord Siva appeared as a gopi and gopa also, Gopisvara and Gopesvara. The famous Mahadeva Gopisvara temple is in Vrindavan, and in that lila Siva is said to have desired to become a gopi and enter the rasa dance, but ultimately was posted at the gate as a guard." (Swami Tripurari)
naradiya gopi is the form of gopi of narada muni. is this form of naradiya gopi eternal or not?
Is narada only trying to taste that thing, or does he really have an eternal form of naradiya gopi?
"Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja: Uddhava will not attain a gopi body. Narada eternally has so many forms in all the sweet pastimes of Krsna. In one form he is Madhu-mangala (Krsna's cowherd-boy friend). In a second form he is Naradiya gopi; in another form, in Vaikuntha, he is with Lord Narayana; and he has another form in Svarga (heaven), with the demigods. He has so many eternal forms."
Srila Prabhupada, Teachings of Lord Caitanya ch. 17:
"There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord."
Again, how do pure devotees which have parental love for example become situated within the intimate circle of confidential devotees in conjugal love?
And more. It is quite clear from sastra that narada was a conditioned jiva in a previous life.
So, if in fact he is classified as svarupa sakti, then he attained that position from the ranks of the conditioned souls.
=Narada must only have played the role of being conditioned.=
Maybe and perhaps.....
"The idea is that most of the gurus are sadhana-siddha, the others are nitya-siddhas. All are siddhas. The nitya-siddha is more rare, but not better, for both are siddha. The sadhana-siddha is one who becomes a siddha through sadhana and then serves in the capacity of guru. Narada Muni is a sadhana-siddha. His story is found in Srimad-Bhagavatam." (Swami Tripurari)
=I would accept Srila Prabhodananda Saraswati's opinion about Shivas's and Narada's gopi forms.=
Yes, but gopisvara mahadeva and naradiya gopi are eternal forms of siva and narada.
The sthayi-bhava of narada muni is dasya-rasa and ... he has another form of gopi.
=If you say Narada's form as a gopi is eternal, that means you agree he is a nitya-parsada.=
When a sadhaka reaches his perfect spiritual body (svarupa), this body is eternal. So, narada muni is a sadhana-siddha.
=With this logic everything is up for grabs. Maybe Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode also have sakhya rasa svarupas, or perhaps they also have svarupas in vatsalya rasa, etc. etc. And you support this with a misunderstanding of the implications of Gaura-gonnodesa-dipika and the notion of multiple svarupas for liberated souls=
A Gaudiya Vaisnava in madhurya rasa will not need a simultaneous svarupa. Only those in rasas not madhurya will receive svarupas in madhurya.
=Regarding Narada, he is a complex figure. Indeed Jiva Goswami comments in Krama-sandarbha...=
Here maharaja is giving his opinion that he do not see his guru to be like narada or other paradimatic figures of the bhagavatam that follow bhagavan in his various avataras appearing in numerous forms and expanding into different personalities in different rasas.
Which we respect.
Maharaja is not saying here that there cannot be multiple svarupas.
Regarding the second part:
=Prabhupada writes, “Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityānanda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality (not always). When such devotees (devotees of Nityananda and Advaita) develop great attachment for Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love.”
...I do not think Prabhupada means to say that the devotees in sakhya rasa of Nitai, for example, gradually develop conjugal love by the association of Sri Caitainya.=
Here maharaja is responding to the devotee who said something about changing one rasa to another or evolving through rasa. And we agree. A devotee does not abandon one rasa and assumes another. This is another topic.
The topic that we were talking about is the possibility of multiple svarupas simultaneously.
And the possibility exists and it is called svarupa vyuha !!!
"But you make the mistake of describing nitya siddha as higher devotees than sadhana siddhas ... The two are different, no doubt. I could see how one could argue that the nitya siddha ragatmika is higher in that such devotees are to be followed by sadhana siddhas. Then again Sanatana Goswami has argued that the sadhana siddhas are better because their love has been tested! So I prefer not to look at one as higher than the other. Both are siddha, that’s all. And that is how Prabhupada dealt with the issue."
=we do not find Rupa Goswami saying anything in BRS abut cultivating multiple svarupas.=
of course we do not find. sadhakas cultivate only one bhava in only one rasa. multiple svarupas, if it happens it is after.
=and still hoping for an explanation of the Caitanya-candrodaya verses=
Me too
I'm just asking. What does it mean?
"Vrajanatha: Prabhu, I am a follower of Sri Subala. I know that you will consider my eligibility to hear about madhurya-rasa and instruct me appropriately.
Gosvami: The priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree. I will keep your qualification in mind and speak whatever is appropriate for you - not more, and I will say nothing unsuitable." (Srila Bhaktivinoda JD 30)
Indeed.
but after in the end of the same chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
and therefore sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa because priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree.
and for real, guru goswami explained madhurya rasa only for vijaya and not to vrajanatha.
Well, gaudiya vaisnavas sadhakas meditate in two svarupas ... simultaneously !!!
"Vrajanatha: What is the ultimate destination of the unalloyed bhaktas of Sri Gaura-Kisora (Caitanya Mahaprabhu)?
Babaji: Sri Krsna and Sri Gaura Kisora are non different in their tattva (absolute nature). They are both shelters of madhurya-rasa. However, there is a slight difference between Them because madhurya-rasa has two prakosts (chambers). One is the mood of madhurya (sweetness), and the other is the mood of audarya (magnanimity).
Sri Krsna’s svarupa is manifest where madhurya is prominent, and Sri Gauranga’s form is manifest where audarya is prominent. Similarly, the transcendental Vrndavana also has two prakosts (divisions): Sri Krsna’s abode and Sri Gaura’s abode. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Sri Krsna’s abode are attracted first to madhurya, and then to audarya. The nitya-siddha and nitya-mukta associates who reside in Sri Gaura’s abode are blissfully absorbed in audarya, and then madhurya. Some of them reside in both abodes simultaneously by expansions of the self (svarupa-vyuha), while others reside in one spiritual form in only one abode, and not in the other.
Those who only worship Sri Gaura during their period of sadhana, only serve Sri Gaura when they achieve perfection, while those who only serve Sri Krsna during their period of sadhana serve Sri Krsna on achieving perfection. However, those who worship the forms of both Sri Krsna and Sri Gaura during their period of sadhana manifest two forms when they attain perfection and reside in both abodes simultaneously. The truth of the simultaneous oneness and difference of Sri Gaura and Sri Krsna is a very confidential secret.
When Vrajanatha had heard all these teachings about the state of the jivas who are liberated from maya, he could no longer keep his composure." (JD C17)
Yes, this is not two rasas in Vraja lila. But the power of the siddhas is immense.
Dhananjaya Pandita is Vasudama and Madana Manjari.
"eligible for srngara-rasa to some extent" and "permitted to participate" to an "extremely restricted degree" ... for me is the same.
besides that:
but after in the end of the same chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
and therefore sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa because priya-narma-sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara-rasa, to an extremely restricted degree OR "eligible for srngara-rasa to some extent".
and for real, guru goswami explained madhurya rasa only for vijaya and not to vrajanatha.
I think prabhupada asked his followers to study his books and the books of the previous acaryas. and surely "evolving through rasa" is a tremendous amount of speculation and confusion.
=This does not mean that those two devotees, ie: Vasudama and Madana-manjari are the same person. That is not the import of that statement.=
Yes, it could mean that dhananjaya pandita just has some characteristics of vasudama and some characteristics of madana manjari ... or not.
Who knows !!!
We know that siddhas can have amsas and can participate in different lilas with different svarupas and some of them in the same lila.
=We must be very careful when understanding the possibility of two simultaneous forms- one to serve in Gaura lila and one to serve in Krsna lila. This is a very high concept based on the complete attraction for two different forms of the Lord.=
Gauranga Lila and Govinda Lila should be worshiped simultaneously, because when the Gaudiya Vaishnava Sadhakas attain perfection they get two spiritual bodies.
Generally, when achieve spiritual perfection, a living entity has only one svarupa (transcendental body).
However, in many cases, the ultimate destination of the Srila Rupa Goswami's followers is to get two spiritual Svarupas:
1) A majestically beautiful form of Kisori (female) Manjari Gopi (in general), to serve Radha Govinda in the association of other Sakhis and Manjaris of Vraja.
2) A wonderfully golden form of Kisora (male) to serve Lord Gaurasundara and His associates in Navadvipa Dhama.
The most fortunate devotee will participate simultaneously in these Lilas to eternally serve the Lord.
=serving in Krsna leela with two different forms and two different rasas=
siddhas want to serve krsna more and more and more ... especially the same rasa of caitanya mahaprabhu (madhurya) in the ETERNAL navadvipa (svetadvipa), and then, they are included in the intimate circle of conjugal devotees without losing their previous sthayi bhava.
