Rasa–Inerente ou influência ???

The Jiva does not need to have had a relationship with Krsna in order to have a particular Rasa in its constitution. Each Jiva has a particular Rasa in its constitution. And this particular Rasa awakens according to one's natural inclinations.
And so, you're going to seek association of the Guru and Sadhus who are in the same Rasa.

Take the example of Murari Gupta. Even with the association of Sri Krsna Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself, he has not changed his Rasa.

"......Murari Gupta is eternal servant of the Lord, nitya siddha who already had his relationship and svarup....."

Of course, very advanced devotees can influence anyone in many ways, especially if one's attraction is not solid and firmly fixed. But ultimately it is the individual who must fully accept it as being who they are in the context of Krsna's lila

Thakura Bhaktivinoda’s Dasa-mula-tattva further explicates the issue:

“In both forms of sadhana-bhakti (vaidhi and raga) guru is required. In vaidhi-bhakti-sadhana, according to the aspirant’s level of spiritual taste (ruci), the guru will give necessary instructions on how to vanquish anarthas by following scriptural injunctions. Then again, the guru will guide the raganuga-bhakti-sadhaka on the path of rasa, spiritual relish, according to the disciple’s intrinsic spiritual tendency.

The guru must analyze the disciple’s natural tendency and establish his innate lobha (greed) for one of the four rasas – dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or madhurya. Having determined his innate lobha, the guru schools him with pertinent instructions. Otherwise, left to himself, the disciple will stumble along as an unauthorized intruder into the path of rasa and his lobha and bhava will never reach steadiness. It is not that everyone must be sadhakas of madhurya rasa. The guru who is unable to determine his disciple’s innate lobha, should, without duplicity, express his inability and send his disciple to an eligible bona-fide guru conversant in this science of rasa. For the sadhaka disciple, it is a spiritual catastrophe if he is without the shelter of a bona-fide highly qualified guru."

One thing is certain. Once someone is firmly entrenched in a specific Rasa, NO changes.

If someone in a previous life received the association of a Uttama Maha Bhagavata Sakhya Guru and advanced in the process to the stage of Bhava but failed to reach the final. Still, his /her Rasa in Sakhya was FIRMLY established. Does not change. He/she has reached a stage that does not change.

If in this present life, this same person has the association of a Uttama Maha Bhagavata Guru Madhurya will not change his/her Rasa.

".......Of course, those who reached Bhava in previous lives are completely different story. But I doubt there are many such devotees born in the west or even India........."

Sorry, but that's exactly the point.

Uttama Maha Bhagavata Madhurya Gurus should be careful (and they really are) not to impose their Rasa on their disciples that are FIRMLY established in another Rasa.

CC Madhya 9.22 — After visiting the temple of Trivikrama, the Lord returned to Siddhavaṭa, where He again visited the house of the brāhmaṇa, who was now constantly chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.
CC Madhya 9.23 — After finishing His lunch there, Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu asked the brāhmaṇa, “My dear friend, kindly tell Me what your position is now.
CC Madhya 9.24 — “Formerly you were constantly chanting the holy name of Lord Rāma. Why are you now constantly chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa?”
CC Madhya 9.25 — The brāhmaṇa replied, “This is all due to Your influence, Sir. After seeing You, I have lost my lifelong practice.
CC Madhya 9.26 — “From my childhood I have been chanting the holy name of Lord Rāmacandra, but upon seeing You I chanted the holy name of Lord Kṛṣṇa just once.
CC Madhya 9.27 — “Since then, the holy name of Kṛṣṇa has been tightly fixed upon my tongue. Indeed, since I have been chanting the holy name of Kṛṣṇa, the holy name of Lord Rāmacandra has gone far away.
CC Madhya 9.28 — “From my childhood I have been collecting the glories of the holy name from revealed scriptures.
CC Madhya 9.29 — “‘The Supreme Absolute Truth is called Rāma because the transcendentalists take pleasure in the unlimited true pleasure of spiritual existence.’
CC Madhya 9.30 — “‘The word “kṛṣ” is the attractive feature of the Lord’s existence, and “ṇa” means spiritual pleasure. When the verb “kṛṣ” is added to the affix “ṇa,” it becomes “Kṛṣṇa,” which indicates the Absolute Truth.’
CC Madhya 9.31 — “As far as the holy names of Rāma and Kṛṣṇa are concerned, they are on an equal level, but for further advancement we receive some specific information from the revealed scriptures.
CC Madhya 9.32 — “[Lord Śiva addressed his wife, Durgā:] ‘O Varānanā, I chant the holy name of Rāma, Rāma, Rāma and thus enjoy this beautiful sound. This holy name of Rāmacandra is equal to one thousand holy names of Lord Viṣṇu.’
CC Madhya 9.33 — “‘The pious results derived from chanting the thousand holy names of Viṣṇu three times can be attained by only one utterance of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa.’
CC Madhya 9.34 — “According to this statement of the śāstras, the glories of the holy name of Kṛṣṇa are unlimited. Still I could not chant His holy name. Please hear the reason for this.
CC Madhya 9.35 — “My worshipable Lord has been Lord Rāmacandra, and by chanting His holy name I received happiness. Because I received such happiness, I chanted the holy name of Lord Rāma day and night.
CC Madhya 9.36 — “By Your appearance, Lord Kṛṣṇa’s holy name also appeared, and at that time the glories of Kṛṣṇa’s name awoke in my heart.
CC Madhya 9.37 — “Sir, You are that Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself. This is my conclusion.” Saying this, the brāhmaṇa fell down at the lotus feet of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu.
CC Madhya 9.38 — After showing mercy to the brāhmaṇa, Lord Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu left the next day and arrived at Vṛddhakāśī, where He visited the temple of Lord Śiva.

The Rasa of Jiva is inherent in its constitution. But until it reaches perfection, and by the influence of Krsna or a pure devotee, the Rasa can be changed. This must be taken into account.

However, once firmly established does not change.

• 
  
  Tarun Govinda! Welcome back, so much your input in these discussions is needed and has been terribly missed. While reading I was awed and wondered who had written it- then reading your name, well it would be expected. I hope you never abandon us again. 
  >>Let us not fight over different issues and different understandings. 
  The goal is the same: 
  To realize our eternal svarupa and to be forever with Sri Sri Radha Krishna. 
  Yes, discussions should always be conducted in a loving and respectful way. I am not always good at doing that, but with your association I hope to improve. 
  It seems logical to me that not just propensity for rasa itself being inherent in the jiva, but a propensity for a specific rasa is inherent. Obviously we can rule out that the jiva already has that rasa- as we are not proponents of the idea we all fell out of vaikuntha which is defined as the place from which no one falls. At the same time, by our very constitution we are Krsna's servants, linked to Him by virtue of what we are. So that is our innate propensity for rasa. Why I think it may be for a particular rasa, is the quote under discussion: 
  "But what determines who takes up which type of rati? Is it decided by having no impressions of a particular rati from previous lives, by having an impression of one type of rati from previous lives, or by having impressions of many types of rati? 
  In the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. In the case of persons having impressions of many types of rati, a particular rati could not manifest prominently because conflicting tastes would result in the improper manifestation of rasa (rasābhāsa). Therefore, impressions of only one type carried from previous lives produce the specific taste." 
  On what basis are impressions of only ONE type carried forward into the present life? Does that mean, in all our lives here in the material world, we only ever had association with sadhus in ONE rasa? Thats a bit hard to believe- even in this lifeI have had association with sadhus in at least three. It makes sense to me that there is a guiding principle here- a natural propensity towards a certain rasa. BVT explicitly stated it to be so, and it provides an excellent explanation as to why impressions of only one rasa are carried forward into future lives.
  
  
  10 h · Não gosto · 2
• 
  
  JG: n the first option – absence of impressions – rati cannot occur at all, because no taste could arise. 
  This states explicitly that impressions are vital- no taste can arise without them. But this is entirely resonant with inherent propensity for a particular rasa- for it stays as an inherent propensity only- without impressions- and can never be tasted. Eternally, we can never "taste" our rasa without the mercy of sadhus who create powerful samskaras. But if it were impressions only that give rise to rasa, then necessarily each of us would have no rati- because of rasabhasa arising from many impressions- from sadhus in different rasas. 
  For these reasons, so far I am inclined to believe the version of BVT (I come in his line anyway) that the propensity for a certain rasa is "integral to the soul".
  
  
  9 h · Não gosto · 2
• 
  
  Very good points Tarun Govinda prabhu. Once one is genuinely qualified for raganuga by knowing with certainty one's desired relationship, then we are all treading the same path of channeling our desires into that relationship to bring it to perfection via our sadhana and bhajana. 
  One consideration to ponder and discuss is whether the impressions accumulated over many lifetimes have "given" one their inclination or whether they have "activated the potentiality" that is there in the jiva who is always a unique individual person and not just a "spiritual unit of conscious existence". Persons have desires and propensities unique to their natures and that is why jivas are capable of receiving the svarupa-sakti. 
  Suppose a jiva associates with realized devotees in several different rasas. Why will one rasa resonate or attract a jiva more while the others won't? Is it the potency of the individual rasika devotee or the prospect of a particular relationship with Krsna and Radha that awakens this attraction in one's heart? 
  In other words, the more we hear about the type of relationship that attracts us the most, the more it becomes solidified in our hearts and minds, whereas, hearing about other relationships will not have that effect because they do not speak to our innate individual propensities (not meaning an inherent rasa).
  
  
  9 h · Não gosto · 5
• 
  
  "Does that mean, in all our lives here in the material world, we only ever had association with sadhus in ONE rasa? " 
  No. For sure not... 
  "Is it the potency of the individual rasika devotee or the prospect of a particular relationship with Krsna and Radha that awakens this attraction in one's heart? 
  I think it might even be both...but the mercy of the rasika devotee is IMHO the topmost factor. 
  I personally think that my intelectual power is very small and I fail to FULLY and COMPLETELY understand the entire subject matter...it is a VERY mysterious and genuine affair. 
  What I understand is the fact that the jiva is able to find a Sri Gurudeva who will act like a "transmitter" of the rasa which is longed for by the jiva...how we actually came to such an inclination towards a particular rasa...to me, it is entirely because of KRIPA...how much of this "inclination" is rooted in the jiva being tatastha sakti is beyond my mental facilities... 
  I once asked my Gurudeva about the very deep subject matter of JIVA TATTVA and he told me: 
  "Some things we can understand. And some things are not to be UNDERSTOOD, but to be REALIZED." 
  But I think we found a very nice and comfy platform to be in harmony here. 
  Thank you. 
  Tarun
  
  
  6 h · Editado · Não gosto · 3
• It's not the same if somebody just meet devotees of particular rasa or if someone got initiation and/or mercy from some raga devotee in previous lives. My understanding is that Jiva Goswami spoke about those devotees who were initiated and/or got mercy from raga devotees of different rasas in the past. Of course, we all had probably come in contact with the devotees or vaishnava scriptures in previous lives but this doesn't make strong impressions which Jiva Goswami spoke about.
  3 h · Editado · Gosto
• 
  
  I think we have understood that we don't understand! The carrying forward into this life of one impression could be because only one guru gave one impression- or that one or many gurus gave the impression that triggered off the growth of an innate propensity to one rasa. 
  Either way, the result- the inclinations of the disciple are very important- they are the cause of rati. Therefore, it is quite reasonable for a guru to enquire in this regard. He would enquire, then consult Krsna as to whether the inclination is genuine, or just a passing thing, perhaps from recent association with a devotee of that rasa. I think both are important.
  
  
  4 h · Editado · Não gosto · 1
• So we agee that in either case Guru needs to consult Krsna. It's unavoidable duty of qualified Guru. If he just consult us it's a problem, beacuse we don't know from where some inclination comes from. Maybe they are result of mercy we received in previous lives, maybe some weak passing impression, or maybe they are just our material impressions and desires projected on spiritual life.
  3 h · Editado · Gosto
• ‘Siddha-deha’ means the body that our Spiritual Master gives us and we meditate on it. Srimat Jiva Goswâmipâd says – ‘siddha deha’ is the body that is worthy of serving Sri Krishna. Srila Vishwanâth Chakravartipâd has said – ‘siddha-deha’ is the body t...Ver mais
  1 h · Editado · Gosto
• The siddha-deha of the sâdhak is a beautiful treasure of the eternal divine abode and it is permanent. All the siddha-dehas are conscious, blissful and is in the mode of especially pure goodness. We see in Srimad-Bhâgavatam – “vasanti yatra purushâh sa...Ver mais
  1 h · Gosto
• One of the main differences is that some approaches with attitude sidhha-deha is eternal and given and some that it is created (or discovered) by our sadhana. My personal opinion is they are both correct. One Guru can give us siddha-deha as kripa (that's how it's possible all disciples are manjaris for example), and one Guru can give us sadhana through which we create (or find) our siddha-deha.
  25 min · Editado · Gosto · 1
• 
  
  DPD: So we agee that in either case Guru needs to consult Krsna. It's unavoidable duty of qualified Guru. 
  How do you know he is consulting? You don't, so this line of argument is fruitless. Therefore, when discussing the qualifications of each type of devotee, or the guru, even the bhava bhakta, the sastra lists completely observable characteristics.
  
  

Regarding the siddha-deha being given by one's guru, I didn't find that indicated in BRS or CC. In BRS JG and VCT both say the siddha-deha is mentally conceived or developed by internal meditation. Certainly this is all due to the guru's mercy but it is not stated that he/she "gives" one's siddha-deha:

Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one’s physical body (sādhaka-rūpa) and in one’s siddha body (siddha-rūpa), with a desire for a particular bhāva [of a Vraja associate - vraja-lokānusārataḥ]. BRS, 1.2.295

From Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary:

Sādhaka-rūpa refers to the physical body of the practitioner. Siddha-rūpa refers to the body which is suitable for one’s desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation. (siddha-rūpeṇa antas-cintitabhiṣta-tat-sevopayogi-dehena) One serves with a desire for the particular bhāva or rati of an associate of Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja.

From Viśvanātha Cakravartī’s commentary:

One performs service with the sādhaka-rūpa – the present body – and with the siddha-rūpa – the body which is suitable for serving Vraja Kṛṣṇa in the particular type of rati or bhāva one desires, and which appears through inner contemplation, with a desire for a particular rati directed to one’s beloved Kṛṣṇa situated in Vṛndāvana.

• 
  
  Sri Gurudeva doesn´t "GIVE" the siddha deha...he reveals it. 
  It is not that Sri Gurudeva "fabricates" a siddha deha. 
  Like Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur explains mentions several times in his books: Sri Gurudeva reveals the information of the siddha deha and then the sadhaka focuses his consciousness on the siddha deha. 
  On a personal note: 
  How does the sadhaka KNOW that his realization of the own siddha deha is real and genuine? 
  So IMHO it can work both ways: 
  A bona fide Sri Gurudeva receives the information of the sadhaka´s siddha deha from Krishna (samasti-guru) by virtue of his purity and power of meditation and "transmits" the info (eleven bhavas) to the sadhaka. 
  I am not quite convinced but I guess the sadhaka can also realize the siddha deha by the mercy of his Gurudeva by being immersed in genuine bhajan... 
  Personally, I prefer the face-to-face revelation of my Sri Gurudeva over my own futile endeavours. 
  Of course, it could now be discussed when or how or to whom the siddha deha is revealed and why at this stage and not at that stage... 
  I feel very very uncomfortable to discuss or fight over such very private and intimate issues, and luckily it wasn´t done here yet.. 
  Like I said, a true sad guru KNOWS exactly what to do and what not to do. 
  Jay Sri Radhe 
  TGd
  
  
  9 min · Editado · Gosto · 1
• 
  
  Dear Uttamasloka das. the shastric references you quote here are very nice...but they don´t say that the siddha deha "appears before the sadhaka by his/her own endeavour" either... 
  So, yes...all is due to the causeless mercy of Sri Guru.
  
  
  7 min · Gosto
• Radhe. Yes you are right I didn't formulate it clearly. Siddha-deha is revealed to Gurudev and than He reveal it to us. Because I considered it a gift, I said it's given.

• 
  
  http://flowingnectarstream.wordpress.com/.../understandi.../
  The text says: 
  "We can see clearly that one thing is “inherent” in the svarupa of the jiva: eternal servitorship. We will always be servants." 
  "But basically, in theory, yes, every jiva can attain one of these 5 RASAS. 
  All depends on the mercy of Krishna and of Bhakti-devi and on the association we choose to practice bhakti" 
  association WE choose... 
  Now, the question is: 
  Why someone CHOOSE to practice Bhakti in the association of, for example, Ramacandra Bhaktas ? 
  Why someone CHOOSE to practice Bhakti in the association of Narayana Bhaktas ? 
  Why someone CHOOSE to practice Bhakti in the association of Gaudiya Vaisnava Bhaktas in Sakhya ? 
  Why someone CHOOSE to practice Bhakti in the association of Gaudiya Vaisnava Bhaktas in Madhurya ? 
  And so on ...
  
  
  2 min · Editado · Gosto
• If the only thing "inherent” in the svarupa of the jiva is that it's eternal servitorship in general, why choose different kinds of associacion ?

• <Most probably it's just our material impressions and desires...>
• I dont think so.
• "Vrajanatha: What are the symptoms of such lobha?
• Babaji: When one hears about the intensely sweet bhavas of the vraja-vasis, one's intelligence (buddhi-apeksa) begins to consider how one may enter into those dealings. That desire (apeksa) is the symptom that lobha has awakened."
  19 min · Gosto
• Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura comments in his Raga Vartma Chandrika:
• "simply after hearing about the subject matter, or seeing it, that greed will arise in him."

Porque nesta vida tu escolhe ??? Porque numa vida anterior tu recebeu a associação de um devoto que começou teu serviço numa rasa especifica. 

Muitas possibilidades, variáveis, ……………..é como a origem da jiva.

Nem vai por ai

Q. Is our siddha-deha predestined, or is it a matter of which sadhana one chooses to follow? The Caitanya-caritamrta (2.22.107) states that “Pure love for Krishna is eternally established in the hearts of living entities. It is not something to be gained from another source.” This seems to support the idea that our siddha-deha is already within us. 

A by Tripurari Swami: According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura and all of his followers, the svarupa of the jiva is both inherent within the jiva and in need of sadhana for it to manifest. The svarupa is present in the jiva in the form of sat cit ananda anu, a particle of sat cit ananda. However, it cannot manifest without diksa, siksa, and a corresponding sadhana. The verse you cited seems to support this idea. 

However, outside of the succession of Bhaktivinoda Thakura, other Gaudiya Vaisnavas interpret the Goswami literature to say that the svarupa is not dormant in the jiva. They interpret the verse you cited to say that prema is eternally established (nitya siddha), but not in the jiva. It is not a product in time resulting from sadhana, and thus it is not something to attain, sadhya kabu naya. It appears in the heart of the jiva (karaye udaya) who engages in hearing and chanting (sravanadi) when the jiva experiences the ingress of suddha sattva (suddha citte). This group emphasizes Sridhara Swami’s comment on the Visnu Purana cited by Jiva Goswami in Sat-sandarbha. Sridhara Swami says that the Lord is the shelter of the svarupa skati, and not the jiva. 

Our line from Bhaktivinoda counters this by interpreting Sridhara Swami’s words to mean that the entirety of the svarupa sakti is not within the jiva, but a particle of it is. Further practical evidence for the position of Bhaktivinoda Thakura can be drawn from the fact that sometimes, in spite of being initiated into a particular lineage, say of madhurya rati, a disciple develops sakhya bhava. We find an example of this in Jaiva Dharma, and the converse of it in the case of Syamananda prabhu. 

Syamananda was initiated into the lineage of Gauridasa Pandita, the incarnation of Subala sakha in Gaura lila. His guru was Hridaya Caitanya, who was in sakhya rati, but Syamananada developed madhurya rati. The brother of Rupa Santana Goswamis is also an example. He was initiated into the Krishna diksa mantra, but he developed love for Rama. 

In any case, if we are to know our svarupa, we need guidance and sadhana, and most of all we need suddha nama. Try to chant offenselessly, and you will know everything you need to know.

CONCLUSÃO

O que é inerente é que a jiva é um eterno servo de krsna. ABERTA para receber qualquer rasa (5). por associação com sadhus avançados. não é que a jiva tem impresso no seu svarupa uma única rasa.

A primeira influencia que recebe de uma rasa é o que vai deteminar a sua preferencia por uma rasa por muitas vidas. para não ter rasabhasa.

Ainda que a rasa seja determinada por associação de qualquer forma o guru tem que consultar a preferencia do discipulo. pode acontecer que o discipulo recebeu influencia numa vida anterior de outra rasa diferente da do guru nesta vida.

e também pode acontecer que a influencia da rasa do guru nesta vida tenha mais influencia.

quando prabhupada escreve krsna prema eternamente estabelecida no coração é neste sentido. não é que a jiva tem impresso no seu svarupa uma única rasa. ou que a jiva ja experimentou uma rasa com krsna.

e mesmo admitindo que há uma unica rasa inerente na jiva, ainda assim poderá mudar pela associação se não tiver alcançado a perfeição e estiver firmemente estabelecido.

então a jiva tem uma rasa inerente na sua constituição? pode até ter, mas o que vai determinar e é mais importante é a associação.

Devotee: I want to expand on a few points I made earlier about the siddha-deha. The siddha-deha is a term that refers to several different things. In the context of raganuga-bhakti it refers to the mentally conceived spiritually perfect body which is suitable for service as contemplated in the mind, ie: manasi-seva during lila-smaranam. Sometimes the acaryas use the term siddha-deha to refer to our perfect spiritual body which Krsna awards us when we attain bhava, ie: svarupa-siddhi. 

BVT takes it one step further and uses the term vastu-siddhi to refer to the spiritual body we obtain by taking birth in bhauma-lila from the womb of a nitya-siddha gopi mother, ie: vastu means object, the body. That body is the actual one we keep forever and with which we enter aprakata-nitya-lila. 

But the siddha-deha in the context of raganuga-bhakti is more than just a body. It is the basis for our desired identity in Krsna lila. The siddha-deha is not our full identity in and of itself. Rather, it is the bodily form through which our spiritualized personalities can manifest the full extent of our desired relationship with Krsna. Relationships exist between two people not two bodies. 

The jiva IS the person, not the siddha-deha. The relationship with Krsna is between the jiva and Him. Prema is exchanged between the jiva and Krsna. The siddha-deha is one part of our self-conception in the lila, ie: our abhimana as a sakhi or sakha, etc. To participate in the lila we first need a relationship which is the basis for interacting with Krsna and exchanging prema with Him. Once the type of relationship is firmly established or revealed or awakened after lifetimes of impressions, we then need a suitable identity within the lila so we can take our place in the pastimes among the other Vraja-vasis. 

An identity implies having a suitable body to go along with that self-conception. An identity has various attributes and that’s where the ekadasa-bhavas come into play. These 11 aspects are in effect our personality profile in Vraja and some of them relate to our physical attributes, some have to do with our desired services, and some relate to how we fit into the scheme of things within Radha’s group if our relationship is madhurya-rasa. 

Using the template of the ekadasa-bhavas insures that we don’t speculate wildly about these details, and it defines the acceptable parameters for establishing the foundation of our desired identity. And these details are very personal and unique to each individual jiva. 

As I said before, by the causal force of our material desires different bodies are created by the material energy to facilitate fulfillment of those desires. And the same principle applies to the siddha-deha, ie: by the causal force of our spiritual desires for a relationship and service as expressed during sadhana and bhajana we gradually ripen to the stage of bhava, where Krsna fulfills our desires by awarding us our desired relationship, identity and form. 

It is stated in sastra that Krsna reciprocally loves His devotee exactly how the devotee loves Him and He manifests the specific form which is most desired by the devotee. By the attractive power of the devotee’s prema, Krsna fulfills all of his/her desires. It’s all about the individual jiva’s desires for a relationship and participation in the lila. Desires are a predominant characteristic that we share with Krsna. He made us like that for a reason. 

It has nothing to do with the guru giving his rasa or revealing the siddha-deha (not supported by any acaryas) or following the same rasa as one’s lineage, etc. It’s all about what we as individuals want. Obviously during sadhana/practice none of us are fully pure but that doesn’t stop the process from working and delivering the desired results. It’s our underlying sincerity and intentions that matter and that’s what Krsna sees and what attracts Him. 

The guru’s role is to teach us about these esoteric details and to give us guidance along the way. That includes blessing us with all kinds of mercy to be able to engage in these processes successfully. Part of that is also our service to our gurus in our sadhaka-dehas, ie: dasanudasa. 

Therefore, in raganuga-bhakti, the siddha-deha is the medium for establishing and manifesting our desired spiritual identity and engaging in manasi-seva during sadhana and bhajana. It is mentally conceived by us - it is not given at that time. That’s what the acaryas have taught and the references are all there in BRS and RVC, etc.

You continue to put your foot in your mouth and prove my points. Good for you. You conveniently left out the rest of my post about my explanation of the term liberation as Srila Prabhupada used it in conjunction with raganuga-bhakti. More dishonesty on your part, sad to say.

Here's the whole post so everyone can see:

Well, the term "liberated" is used in different contexts by many acaryas, including Srila Prabhupada. When SP used that term in the context of being qualified for raganuga-bhakti he meant that one has progressed through anartha-nivritti to the point where one is sufficiently free from the major influences of those anarthas and has given up pursuing them in favor of spiritual progress.

Otherwise, it would not make any sense because the whole point of practice, ie: sadhana, is to attain liberation or bhava for us, so it's illogical to say you have to become liberated first before you can practice that which will liberate you. Therefore, it is understood that his use of that term was to indicate a significant level of freedom from anarthas, by which one can attain nistha - steadiness in practice.

Here are some excerpts from SP's lectures where he discusses this:

If all the unwanted things are vanquished, then you'll have firm faith. Bhaktir bhavati naiṣṭhikī. Nityaṁ bhāgavata-sevayā, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... Naṣṭa [SB 1.2.18]. Not that I am completely free from all sinful activities, but prāyeṣu, say, fifty percent, sixty percent is gone. At that time, naṣṭa-prāyeṣu abhadreṣu... How it has come to take place? Nityam bhāgavata-sevayā. 

So nasta-prayesv abhadresu nityam bhagavata-sevaya [SB 1.2.18].

Not all cleansed, but praya, say, seventy-five cleansed. At that time, you become fixed-up in devotional service, naisthiki. There are different stages of devotional service. That I have explained several times. First of all, sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivrttih syat.

When anartha-nivrttih syat, all unwanted things are finished, at that time, nistha, firm faith. So bhagavaty uttama-sloke bhaktir bhavati naisthiki. So, so long there are dirty things, our faith and devotion in Krsna is not very fixed up, sometimes we deviate, we go away. But then nasta-prayesu, when seventy-five percent of the dirty things are cleansed, then our faith in God becomes fixed up. Bhagavaty uttama-sloke.

<How is it possible for the nitya-siddha in Santa dasya, sakhya and vatsalya, awaken, give nutrition, reveal the transcendental body of the sadhaka with inclination to madhurya with ekadasa rasa-bhava and all other primary and secondary ornaments?>

First of all, the guru does not reveal one's siddha-deha - it is mentally conceived according to one's inclinations and desires. The guru guides the disciple in this awakening - he does not impose anything. Can you please give us some references from the acaryas to support your statements?

< Specifically tad-tad-bhava-ichamayi [mood lover married to Sri Krsna, indirectly, assisting in everything is POSSIBLE for the meeting of Sri Sri Radha Krsna Yugala Kisora Kisori ??? Only under the guidance and supervision of a nitya-siddha-parikara, kaya-viuha, absorbed in the mood kamanuga-tad-tad-bhava-ichamayi in a transcendental form of SRI GURUDEV, instructing us.>

The guru is not necessarily a nitya-siddha parikara - he/she may be a sadhana-siddha. Part of the guidance comes from the nitya-siddha Vraja-vasi whom we follow and along with that we receive the constant guidance, blessings and mercy from our gurus. Ultimately it is Krsna who is guiding us from within along with sadhu and sastra.

Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī also reveals more insights into his mindset, and provides additional proof that he understood and accepted this knowledge and these processes. In a letter to a disciple, he wrote:

I have noted your letter dated the 24th. The aṣta-kālīya-līlā, about which you have heard from the Vaiṣṇavas in Vṛndāvana, should be highly regarded no doubt. But the way in which these pastimes are conceived of in the contaminated state is totally corrupt.

Some fortunate individuals are capable of knowing these things after chanting for a long time, for that is the identity of the true self. But it can only be known after one is freed of mental contaminations. With the awakening of this spiritual identity, one automatically has constant cognition of his spiritual form.

Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done. On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them.

The spiritual identity has eleven aspects (ekadāśa-bhāva). There are many cases of unscrupulous gurus who artificially force-feed these designations on unqualified practitioners, but we cannot call this the mark of spiritual perfection.

Those who have achieved the perfection of being fixed in their spiritual identity (svarupa-siddhi) have attained such a realization through internal revelation, and the spiritual master’s only involvement in these matters is to help the further advancement of a disciple. As a practitioner progresses toward spiritual perfection, all these things are revealed naturally within the heart that sincerely seeks service. Prabhupāder Patrāvalī

<Who delivers the spiritual body to the sadhaka, the end of the process, will yogamaya.>

According to VCT, Krsna is the one who awards one this perfection, including a suitable spiritual body, exactly as Krsna awarded a spiritual body to Narada Muni.

<How can the sadhana-siddha act in the guru-platform. At a certain stage, when the sadhana-siddha achieve bhava [svarupa-siddhi]. Yogamaya this sadhaka will transfer to the womb of a gopi in prakata-lila.>

The transfer to prakata-lila takes place once one's bhava has transformed into the beginning stages of prema. And even then, that is at the discretion of Krsna.

<Our atma-sarira [spiritual body] and our bhava, our relationship with Sri Bhagavan is within the atma, but unmanifested.>

The "potential" for a relationship is there but the seed of bhakti must first be planted and nourished.

<Only prema through harikatha, seva and harinama for Vaishnava guru nitya-siddha has descended to uttama platform and then to the platform of madhyama can awaken what is already in our hearts unmanifested.>

I have not read that in any of the acaryas' books, ie: that the guru is "always" and "only" a nitya-siddha who has descended. Can you give us some references?

<Otherwise, the statement mahaprabhu the CC within the sanatana-siksa, sloka 108 [jivera svarupa haya, NITYA-SIDDHA], does not match. The word NITYA-SIDDHA refers to our eternal relationship that is unmanifested within jivatma. How to harmonize these details?>

In that verse, it states that Krsna prema is nitya-siddha, ie: eternally existing, because it is from the svarupa-sakti. It does not say our relationship is nitya-siddha. In BRS in the chapter on bhava-bhakti, it states that bhava "descends from the svarupa-sakti" into the heart and mind of the sadhaka at the stage of bhava. Jivas do not have svarupa-sakti inherent in their nature because they are tatastha-sakti, not svarupa-sakti.