Krsna está sempre a executar passatempos em algum Universo Material.
Quando o devoto alcança Bhava (não é possível com este corpo alcançar os últimos estágios de Prema) e abandona este corpo, nasce num Universo Material onde Krsna está a executar passatempos.
Aí aperfeiçoa até os últimos estágios de Prema e depois vai para o Mundo Espiritual.
Srsti-lila, os passatempos da criação e destruição dos Universos Materiais são Anadi e Ananta. Não têm começo e não têm fim.
O condicionamento do Jiva (Tasatha Sakti), nós, também é Anadi. Sem começo. Mas não é Ananta, pois este condicionamento do Tasatha Jiva (nós), pode ter um fim.
https://bhakti-tattva.blogspot.com/2016/12/jiva-palavra-final.html
A jiva can have several simultaneous identities. Many Gaudiyas cultivate two forms during Sadhana. One in Nitya Navadvipa as a young Brahmana and another form in Gokula as a Manjari.
Advaita Parivara only accepts cultivation of one form in Gokula. But accept the possibility of Svarupa vyuha of eternal associates.
The power of a liberated Jiva is immense. And it can take many forms simultaneously.
But here we are talking about three Siddha bodies of the same identity.
Something is inspired by his comments, yes. Apart from a few things I don't agree with, his book is very good.
sādhaka-rūpeṇa yathāvasthita-dehena | siddha-rūpeṇa antaś-cintitābhīṣṭa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | tasya vrajasthasya nijābhīṣṭasya śrī-kṛṣṇasya yo bhāvo rati-viśeṣas tal-lipsunā |
"[The word] sādhaka-rūpeṇa means ‘with one’s current body’. [The word] siddha-rūpeṇa means ‘with the body which is internally meditated upon as usable in the service of one who is dear’. [tad-bhāva-lipsunā is now explained] Desirous (lipsunā) of the special rati or love (bhāva) of the beloved of Śrī Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja (tat) who is dear to oneself."
Translation by Satyanarayana Dasa Babaji
Antas - internal
Cintita - thought
Abhista - desired
====================
Using Sastra and interpreting the verses as we want, we can prove anything !!!
I'll give an example:
In Caitanya-bhāgavata, Vṛndāvana Dāsa reveals the following:
nityānanda svarūpa sei caitanya bhakti
sarva bhāve karite dharaye prabhura śakti 2.23.526
"Śrī Nityānanda's Bhakti for Gaurāṅga is such that He can worship Him in Śānta, Dāsya, Sakhya, Vātsalya, and Mādhurya Rasa."
Here, some will translate considering "sarva bhāve" not as Nitāi serving in all Bhāvas, but as Nitāi serving with full Bhāva. Because "sarva" can be translated as "all" or as "full".
You see. We can go around and interpret it as we want.
====================
"Abhista" is related to the desired body and not the desired (Lipsuna) Bhava. ISTO é a segunda parte do verso.
NÃO HÁ outra maneira de traduzir este verso.
NÃO HÁ outra maneira de traduzir este verso.
I ask you to carefully read the following link to my blog. It is first in Portuguese and then in English. It's a long text. But all points are covered.
There I explain that the "naturally revealed siddha-deha" is not something that "falls from the sky", but is desired and aspired and most importantly "constructed in the mind" (Manasi Parikalpya) and of course Abhista = desired.
=====That aspiration and desire ARE the "inner revelation" during Sadhana (Nistha, Ruci, Asakti). After, in the advanced stage of Bhava there will be the realization========
Yes, when a devotee performs loving service, his/her physical body (Sadhaka-deha) becomes spiritualized.
See CC Antya 4 - 192
"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as Himself."
193
"When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord."
194
"The living entity who is subjected to birth and death attains immortality when he gives up all material activities, dedicates his life to the execution of My order, and acts according to My directions. In this way he becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss derived from exchanging loving mellows with Me."
====================
In fact, to consider the Sadhaka-deha as material is a Vaisnava-aparadha. Sadhaka-deha becomes "spiritualized".
However, of course, the devotee continues to follow all the rules of devotional service. Take a shower, clean teeth, apply Tilaka, etc.
It is not that the devotee, because the body becomes spiritualized, begins to practice an unregulated and undisciplined devotion.
The physical body becomes spiritualized, but continues to be a material body.
Otherwise it becomes like the philosophy of Rupa Kaviraja opposed by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti that there is no need to worship Tulasi, there is no need to follow Ekadasi and a man with his physical body can wear Sari.
It would be nice to have this in the main text of the post about the concept of sadhaka deha too.
<Is Nikunj Lila-s manifested in material world?!>
Yes, why not?
Please, see Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7
There, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti explains that Sadhakas in Manjari Bhava also have to take birth in Bhauma Lila first.
According to the Paddhati of Dhyanacandra Gosvami (he refers to Brhad-gautamiya-tantra), the eternal ages (in nitya-lila) of Sri Radha and Sri Krishna are as follows:
Sri Radha: 14 years, 2 months, 15 days
Sri Krishna: 15 years, 9 months, 7 days
In his commentary on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada gives the following course of Krishna's age and his pastimes:
Gokula Mahavana: Birth - 3 years 4 months
Vrindavan, Raman Reti: 3 years 4 months - 6 years 8 months
Nandagram: 6 years 8 months - 10 years 7 months
At the age of 10 years, 7 months, on the dark fortnight of the month of Caitra, Sri Krishna left to Mathura.
Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada further explains that He stayed in Mathura until the age of 28 years, four months, and then moved over to Dvaraka.
In the Vaisnava Tosani commentary on the Srimad Bhagavata, Sanatana Gosvami explains that Sri Krsna went to visit Vraja for two months after the killing of Dantavakra and Salva, and thereafter concluded His Vrindavana pastimes, mounting on a chariot to reach Dvaraka again.
In regards to His age during the Rasa-lila, we find the following in the Krishna-book, chapter 29:
"It appears from the statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam that Krishna had to wait another year for such a moon [saradiya purnima] before enjoying the rasa dance with the gopis. At the age of seven years He lifted Govardhana Hill. Therefore the rasa dance took place during His eighth year."
However, we should understand in this regard that the ages of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna and the gopis do not correspond to the regular growth of people; indeed, reading the Gita-govinda of Jayadeva, it is obvious that the Rasa-dance is not a pastime of eight-year old boys and girls, but rather that of adolescents.
Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada explains in the context of SB 10.45.3:
"The three years and four months that Lord Krishna stayed in Mahavana were the equivalent of five years for an ordinary child, and thus in that period He completed His kaumara stage of childhood.
The period from then to the age of six years and eight months, during which He lived in Vrndavana, constitutes His paugaana stage. And the period from the age of six years and eight months through His tenth year, during which time He lived in Nandisvara [Nandagrama], constitutes His kaisora stage.
Then, at the age of ten years and seven months, on the eleventh lunar day of the dark fortnight of the month of Caitra, He went to Mathura, and on the fourteenth day thereafter He killed Kamsa.
Thus He completed His kaisora period at age ten, and He eternally remains at that age. In other words, we should understand that from this point on the Lord remains forever a kisora."
Which Sastra or Acarya says that Manjaris don't need training? Please, provide references.
<understanding his duty by hints>
Yes, this is the training.
=======================
Where in Raga Vartma Candrika is it said Manjaris don't need training?
So tell me, who Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is referring to in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 ???????
Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7
The entire verse:
"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivritti (cessation of bad habits), nishtha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity.
In the Ujjvala Nilamani it is said that ‘those who are specially attracted to the ecstasy of the Vrajavasis and thus perform raganuga bhajana will attain that abundance of eagerness that is fit for performing raganuga bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three in their own time, according to their eagerness.’
Here the word anuragaugha means ‘that eagerness that makes one qualified for doing raganuga bhajana’. The anuraga mentioned here does not refer to the sthayi bhava (permanent mood) of that name, because the sthayi bhava named anuraga cannot be attained within a material body.
The words ‘having taken birth in Vraja’ means the sadhana siddhas take birth from the womb of a gopika, just as Krishna’s eternally beloved gopis appear with Him when He descends to earth (prakata lila).
After that, gradually sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga and mahabhava will become manifest in the gopika-body of that sadhaka on the strength of associating with the gopis that are endowed with maha-bhava and by hearing and chanting and seeing the greatness of Krishna’s eternally liberated gopis.
These feelings could not possibly have arisen in the material body of the sadhaka, in his previous birth. In this way the extraordinary characteristics of Sri Krishna’s beloveds in Vraja has been shown. In Srimad Bhagavata it is said that the gopis attained the pinnacle of transcendental bliss by seeing Govinda.
Without Him, they experienced a moment to last like a hundred ages. Their statement (in Srimad Bhagavata 10.31.15) ‘Without seeing You, we consider a second to last like an age’, is a symptom of mahabhava.
One may ask: “Why don’t you say: ‘When the sadhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopika-body in the spiritual world (aprakata prakasa) without first taking birth from the womb of a gopika, after which he manifests sneha, etc. there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopis?”
The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because without taking birth from the womb of a gopi one cannot get a proper acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: “Whose daughter is this sakhi? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?”
“All right then”, one may say, “then why not take birth in the aprakata prakasa?” Then the answer is: “No, that can also not be! Sadhakas (practising devotees) or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Sri Vrindavana, only perfected souls can enter it.
Even through one’s own sadhana the feelings of sneha and so on are not easily attained there. Therefore Yogamaya takes those devotees, whose prema has awoken, to Krishna’s materially manifest pastimes in Vrindavana when Krishna descends there, for the sake of perfecting their feelings like sneha etc. before they attain Sri Krishna’s bodily association.
Because practising devotees, fruitive workers and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Sri Vrindavana, it is experienced as both sadhaka bhumi (the land for practitioners) and siddha bhumi (the land for the perfect).
“Then where will those most eager sadhakas stay all this time?” The answer is: “After the sadhaka-body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, even though he has not yet attained the manifestations of prema like sneha and so, just as the Lord once bestowed His Personal audience to Narada Muni in his previous birth (see Srimad Bhagavata Canto One, Chapter Six).
He will give the sadhaka a transcendental gopika-body. Yogamaya will make that body take birth from a gopika-body in the manifest pastimes, when Sri Krishna descends to earth with His eternal associates.
There will be not even the slightest delay in that, because the prakata lila goes on without interruption.
The liberated devotee will take birth in that material universe where Krishna plays His manifest Vrindavana-lila at the time. Sri Krishna and His associates always appear when the loving practising devotee leaves His body.
Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees! Do not fear! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!”
<it's from the reference you provided>
If you believe that is no Nikunja lila in prakata lila.
Fine. Go ahead.
But the devotional sastra Govinda lilamrta and Bhagavatam says after rasa lila there is sambhogha in the nikunjas. And Manjaris ARE THERE assissting.
Prakata or aprakata?
Think as you like
But you didn't answer this.
So tell me, who Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is referring to in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 ???????
Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is very clear in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7.
He says the sadhaka must take birth in Bhauma Lila to get perfection.
Please, could you say to WHOM he is referring to?
<After ras lila Nikunja vihar ... is aprakata>
Please, give sastra and acarya reference for that.
You have not provided any sastric or acarya references.
You just gave a quote from Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura in Prema Bhakti Candrika which means to be trained in Bhauma lila. <Simply on their hints I will understand what is my duty>
In Prarthana Srila Narottama states:
hari hari! āra ki emon daśā hobo kobe vṛṣabhānu pure, āhīrī gopera ghare,
tanayā hoiyā janamibo
"Hari! Hari! When will I attain this condition? When will I be born as a daughter in the house of a cowherder in Vṛṣabhānu's town (Varṣānā)?"
Of course in Raga Vartma Candrika, Srila Visvanatha is saying that Sadhana Siddhas Manjaris are born in Bhauma Lila to reach the last stages of Prema.
====================
<the automatically revealed siddha-rupa ... parikalpya is problematic>
It's not problematic at all. The Siddha Deha is only "automatically revealed" in advanced stage of Bhava.
But this automatic revelation in Bhava only happens because in the previous phases of Nistha, Ruci, Asakti there was a cultivation, a creation (Parikalpya) of the Siddha Deha.
That's why there are three bodies in sequence.
1- the desired, aimed, constructed body (Parikalpya)
2- realization in Bhava. Svarupa siddhi.
3- the final realization in Prema Vastu Siddhi.
For example. During the Sadhana on Nistha, Ruci, Asakti, by chanting Hare Krsna and purifying the Anarthas, the Sadhaka develops a desire: "I wish that my eternal service to the Divine Couple would be to make garlands."
THIS IS NOT IMAGINATION. This is an inner revelation through chanting.
And it is this service that Krsna will reveal later in Bhava.
Krsna reveals in Bhava what the Sadhaka aimed for and built during Sadhana.
Srila Narottama Dasa confirms:
yugala caraṇa sevi, nirantara ei bhāvi, anurāgī thākibo sadāya sādhana bhāvibo yāhā, siddha-dehe pābo tāhā rāga pathera ei se upāya (55)
"I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus-feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. The same Siddha-deha (with a specific Bhāva, Rasa) that I think of during my spiritual practice I will attain when I reach perfection. This is the means of Rāga Bhakti."
====================
sādhane ye dhana cāi, siddha dehe tāhā pāi, pakkāpakka mātra se vicāra apakke sādhana rīti, pākile se prema-bhakti, bhakati lakṣaṇa tattva sāra (56)
"The spiritual body (Siddha-deha) that is cultivated in the Sādhana stage is what will be obtained in the perfect Prema stage. It is simply a matter of the ripe or unripe state of the same thing. When unripe it is called Sādhana-bhakti, when ripe it is Prema-bhakti. That is all what you really need to know about Bhakti."
====================
1 - yes, Siddha Svarupa is eternal, but it is formed by the sadhaka's desires.
Since Krsna is tri kala jna He knows before us how we will choose to serve Him.
Please see this link:
https://bhakti-tattva.blogspot.com/.../jiva-palavra-final...
2 - Bhagavatam 10 canto says aṅga-saṅga — by their conjugal association. Bhagavatam does not give all the details nor does it mention Radharani. But it's all there.
3 - now the most important thing.
AGAIN
Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is very clear in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7.
He says the sadhaka must take birth in Bhauma Lila to get perfection.
Please, could you say to WHOM he is referring to?
Why do not you answer? I've asked so many times.
PLEASE ANSWER THIS OR OUR CONVERSATION ENDS HERE.
====================
Ahhhh
The "Very Special Guru" touches the disciple's head and he/she attains Siddhi without having to go through all the steps explained by Srila Visvanatha in Raga Vartma Candrika....
This is very common in India. This kind of "special mercy" from "special Gurus".
Good luck with "Krpa Siddha"!!!
I prefer Sadhana Siddha.
====================
"Some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Krsna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled."
(Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti - Prema Bhakti Candrika, 1.9)
