Aṣṭottara-Śata Blog: Três Corpos Siddha - Three Siddha Bodies = Comentários/Comments

Krsna está sempre a executar passatempos em algum Universo Material.

Quando o devoto alcança Bhava (não é possível com este corpo alcançar os últimos estágios de Prema) e abandona este corpo, nasce num Universo Material onde Krsna está a executar passatempos.

Aí aperfeiçoa até os últimos estágios de Prema e depois vai para o Mundo Espiritual.

Srsti-lila, os passatempos da criação e destruição dos Universos Materiais são Anadi e Ananta. Não têm começo e não têm fim.

O condicionamento do Jiva (Tasatha Sakti), nós, também é Anadi. Sem começo. Mas não é Ananta, pois este condicionamento do Tasatha Jiva (nós), pode ter um fim.

https://bhakti-tattva.blogspot.com/2016/12/jiva-palavra-final.html

A jiva can have several simultaneous identities. Many Gaudiyas cultivate two forms during Sadhana. One in Nitya Navadvipa as a young Brahmana and another form in Gokula as a Manjari.

Advaita Parivara only accepts cultivation of one form in Gokula. But accept the possibility of Svarupa vyuha of eternal associates.

The power of a liberated Jiva is immense. And it can take many forms simultaneously.

But here we are talking about three Siddha bodies of the same identity.

Something is inspired by his comments, yes. Apart from a few things I don't agree with, his book is very good.

sādhaka-rūpeṇa yathāvasthita-dehena | siddha-rūpeṇa antaś-cintitābhīṣṭa-tat-sevopayogi-dehena | tasya vrajasthasya nijābhīṣṭasya śrī-kṛṣṇasya yo bhāvo rati-viśeṣas tal-lipsunā |

"[The word] sādhaka-rūpeṇa means ‘with one’s current body’. [The word] siddha-rūpeṇa means ‘with the body which is internally meditated upon as usable in the service of one who is dear’. [tad-bhāva-lipsunā is now explained] Desirous (lipsunā) of the special rati or love (bhāva) of the beloved of Śrī Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja (tat) who is dear to oneself."

Translation by Satyanarayana Dasa Babaji

Antas - internal

Cintita - thought

Abhista - desired

====================

Using Sastra and interpreting the verses as we want, we can prove anything !!!

I'll give an example:

In Caitanya-bhāgavata, Vṛndāvana Dāsa reveals the following:

nityānanda svarūpa sei caitanya bhakti

sarva bhāve karite dharaye prabhura śakti 2.23.526

"Śrī Nityānanda's Bhakti for Gaurāṅga is such that He can worship Him in Śānta, Dāsya, Sakhya, Vātsalya, and Mādhurya Rasa."

Here, some will translate considering "sarva bhāve" not as Nitāi serving in all Bhāvas, but as Nitāi serving with full Bhāva. Because "sarva" can be translated as "all" or as "full".

You see. We can go around and interpret it as we want.

====================

"Abhista" is related to the desired body and not the desired (Lipsuna) Bhava. ISTO é a segunda parte do verso.

NÃO HÁ outra maneira de traduzir este verso.

I ask you to carefully read the following link to my blog. It is first in Portuguese and then in English. It's a long text. But all points are covered.

There I explain that the "naturally revealed siddha-deha" is not something that "falls from the sky", but is desired and aspired and most importantly "constructed in the mind" (Manasi Parikalpya) and of course Abhista = desired.

=====That aspiration and desire ARE the "inner revelation" during Sadhana (Nistha, Ruci, Asakti). After, in the advanced stage of Bhava there will be the realization========

====================

Yes, when a devotee performs loving service, his/her physical body (Sadhaka-deha) becomes spiritualized.

See CC Antya 4 - 192

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as Himself."

193

"When the devotee’s body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord."

194

"The living entity who is subjected to birth and death attains immortality when he gives up all material activities, dedicates his life to the execution of My order, and acts according to My directions. In this way he becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss derived from exchanging loving mellows with Me."

====================

In fact, to consider the Sadhaka-deha as material is a Vaisnava-aparadha. Sadhaka-deha becomes "spiritualized".

However, of course, the devotee continues to follow all the rules of devotional service. Take a shower, clean teeth, apply Tilaka, etc.

It is not that the devotee, because the body becomes spiritualized, begins to practice an unregulated and undisciplined devotion.

The physical body becomes spiritualized, but continues to be a material body.

Otherwise it becomes like the philosophy of Rupa Kaviraja opposed by Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti that there is no need to worship Tulasi, there is no need to follow Ekadasi and a man with his physical body can wear Sari.

It would be nice to have this in the main text of the post about the concept of sadhaka deha too.

====================

Yes, why not?

Please, see Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7

There, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti explains that Sadhakas in Manjari Bhava also have to take birth in Bhauma Lila first.

According to the Paddhati of Dhyanacandra Gosvami (he refers to Brhad-gautamiya-tantra), the eternal ages (in nitya-lila) of Sri Radha and Sri Krishna are as follows:

Sri Radha: 14 years, 2 months, 15 days

Sri Krishna: 15 years, 9 months, 7 days

In his commentary on Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada gives the following course of Krishna's age and his pastimes:

Gokula Mahavana: Birth - 3 years 4 months

Vrindavan, Raman Reti: 3 years 4 months - 6 years 8 months

Nandagram: 6 years 8 months - 10 years 7 months

At the age of 10 years, 7 months, on the dark fortnight of the month of Caitra, Sri Krishna left to Mathura.

Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada further explains that He stayed in Mathura until the age of 28 years, four months, and then moved over to Dvaraka.

In the Vaisnava Tosani commentary on the Srimad Bhagavata, Sanatana Gosvami explains that Sri Krsna went to visit Vraja for two months after the killing of Dantavakra and Salva, and thereafter concluded His Vrindavana pastimes, mounting on a chariot to reach Dvaraka again.

In regards to His age during the Rasa-lila, we find the following in the Krishna-book, chapter 29:

"It appears from the statements of Srimad-Bhagavatam that Krishna had to wait another year for such a moon [saradiya purnima] before enjoying the rasa dance with the gopis. At the age of seven years He lifted Govardhana Hill. Therefore the rasa dance took place during His eighth year."

However, we should understand in this regard that the ages of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna and the gopis do not correspond to the regular growth of people; indeed, reading the Gita-govinda of Jayadeva, it is obvious that the Rasa-dance is not a pastime of eight-year old boys and girls, but rather that of adolescents.

Sri Visvanatha Cakravartipada explains in the context of SB 10.45.3:

"The three years and four months that Lord Krishna stayed in Mahavana were the equivalent of five years for an ordinary child, and thus in that period He completed His kaumara stage of childhood.

The period from then to the age of six years and eight months, during which He lived in Vrndavana, constitutes His paugaana stage. And the period from the age of six years and eight months through His tenth year, during which time He lived in Nandisvara [Nandagrama], constitutes His kaisora stage.

Then, at the age of ten years and seven months, on the eleventh lunar day of the dark fortnight of the month of Caitra, He went to Mathura, and on the fourteenth day thereafter He killed Kamsa.

Thus He completed His kaisora period at age ten, and He eternally remains at that age. In other words, we should understand that from this point on the Lord remains forever a kisora."

Which Sastra or Acarya says that Manjaris don't need training? Please, provide references.

Yes, this is the training.

=======================

Where in Raga Vartma Candrika is it said Manjaris don't need training?

So tell me, who Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is referring to in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 ???????

Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7

The entire verse:

"Now it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivritti (cessation of bad habits), nishtha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity.

In the Ujjvala Nilamani it is said that ‘those who are specially attracted to the ecstasy of the Vrajavasis and thus perform raganuga bhajana will attain that abundance of eagerness that is fit for performing raganuga bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three in their own time, according to their eagerness.’

Here the word anuragaugha means ‘that eagerness that makes one qualified for doing raganuga bhajana’. The anuraga mentioned here does not refer to the sthayi bhava (permanent mood) of that name, because the sthayi bhava named anuraga cannot be attained within a material body.

The words ‘having taken birth in Vraja’ means the sadhana siddhas take birth from the womb of a gopika, just as Krishna’s eternally beloved gopis appear with Him when He descends to earth (prakata lila).

After that, gradually sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga and mahabhava will become manifest in the gopika-body of that sadhaka on the strength of associating with the gopis that are endowed with maha-bhava and by hearing and chanting and seeing the greatness of Krishna’s eternally liberated gopis.

These feelings could not possibly have arisen in the material body of the sadhaka, in his previous birth. In this way the extraordinary characteristics of Sri Krishna’s beloveds in Vraja has been shown. In Srimad Bhagavata it is said that the gopis attained the pinnacle of transcendental bliss by seeing Govinda.

Without Him, they experienced a moment to last like a hundred ages. Their statement (in Srimad Bhagavata 10.31.15) ‘Without seeing You, we consider a second to last like an age’, is a symptom of mahabhava.

One may ask: “Why don’t you say: ‘When the sadhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopika-body in the spiritual world (aprakata prakasa) without first taking birth from the womb of a gopika, after which he manifests sneha, etc. there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopis?”

The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because without taking birth from the womb of a gopi one cannot get a proper acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: “Whose daughter is this sakhi? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?”

“All right then”, one may say, “then why not take birth in the aprakata prakasa?” Then the answer is: “No, that can also not be! Sadhakas (practising devotees) or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Sri Vrindavana, only perfected souls can enter it.

Even through one’s own sadhana the feelings of sneha and so on are not easily attained there. Therefore Yogamaya takes those devotees, whose prema has awoken, to Krishna’s materially manifest pastimes in Vrindavana when Krishna descends there, for the sake of perfecting their feelings like sneha etc. before they attain Sri Krishna’s bodily association.

Because practising devotees, fruitive workers and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Sri Vrindavana, it is experienced as both sadhaka bhumi (the land for practitioners) and siddha bhumi (the land for the perfect).

“Then where will those most eager sadhakas stay all this time?” The answer is: “After the sadhaka-body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, even though he has not yet attained the manifestations of prema like sneha and so, just as the Lord once bestowed His Personal audience to Narada Muni in his previous birth (see Srimad Bhagavata Canto One, Chapter Six).

He will give the sadhaka a transcendental gopika-body. Yogamaya will make that body take birth from a gopika-body in the manifest pastimes, when Sri Krishna descends to earth with His eternal associates.

There will be not even the slightest delay in that, because the prakata lila goes on without interruption.

The liberated devotee will take birth in that material universe where Krishna plays His manifest Vrindavana-lila at the time. Sri Krishna and His associates always appear when the loving practising devotee leaves His body.

Therefore, O greatly eager anuragi devotees! Do not fear! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!”

====================

<it's from the reference you provided>

If you believe that is no Nikunja lila in prakata lila.

Fine. Go ahead.

But the devotional sastra Govinda lilamrta and Bhagavatam says after rasa lila there is sambhogha in the nikunjas. And Manjaris ARE THERE assissting.

Prakata or aprakata?

Think as you like

But you didn't answer this.

So tell me, who Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is referring to in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 ???????

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is very clear in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7.

He says the sadhaka must take birth in Bhauma Lila to get perfection.

Please, could you say to WHOM he is referring to?

Please, give sastra and acarya reference for that.

You have not provided any sastric or acarya references.

You just gave a quote from Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura in Prema Bhakti Candrika which means to be trained in Bhauma lila. <Simply on their hints I will understand what is my duty>

In Prarthana Srila Narottama states:

hari hari! āra ki emon daśā hobo kobe vṛṣabhānu pure, āhīrī gopera ghare,

tanayā hoiyā janamibo

"Hari! Hari! When will I attain this condition? When will I be born as a daughter in the house of a cowherder in Vṛṣabhānu's town (Varṣānā)?"

Of course in Raga Vartma Candrika, Srila Visvanatha is saying that Sadhana Siddhas Manjaris are born in Bhauma Lila to reach the last stages of Prema.

====================

It's not problematic at all. The Siddha Deha is only "automatically revealed" in advanced stage of Bhava.

But this automatic revelation in Bhava only happens because in the previous phases of Nistha, Ruci, Asakti there was a cultivation, a creation (Parikalpya) of the Siddha Deha.

That's why there are three bodies in sequence.

1- the desired, aimed, constructed body (Parikalpya)

2- realization in Bhava. Svarupa siddhi.

3- the final realization in Prema Vastu Siddhi.

For example. During the Sadhana on Nistha, Ruci, Asakti, by chanting Hare Krsna and purifying the Anarthas, the Sadhaka develops a desire: "I wish that my eternal service to the Divine Couple would be to make garlands."

THIS IS NOT IMAGINATION. This is an inner revelation through chanting.

And it is this service that Krsna will reveal later in Bhava.

Krsna reveals in Bhava what the Sadhaka aimed for and built during Sadhana.

Srila Narottama Dasa confirms:

yugala caraṇa sevi, nirantara ei bhāvi, anurāgī thākibo sadāya sādhana bhāvibo yāhā, siddha-dehe pābo tāhā rāga pathera ei se upāya (55)

"I will always think of the devotional service of the lotus-feet of the Divine Pair, and I will always remain attached to that. The same Siddha-deha (with a specific Bhāva, Rasa) that I think of during my spiritual practice I will attain when I reach perfection. This is the means of Rāga Bhakti."

====================

sādhane ye dhana cāi, siddha dehe tāhā pāi, pakkāpakka mātra se vicāra apakke sādhana rīti, pākile se prema-bhakti, bhakati lakṣaṇa tattva sāra (56)

"The spiritual body (Siddha-deha) that is cultivated in the Sādhana stage is what will be obtained in the perfect Prema stage. It is simply a matter of the ripe or unripe state of the same thing. When unripe it is called Sādhana-bhakti, when ripe it is Prema-bhakti. That is all what you really need to know about Bhakti."

====================

1 - yes, Siddha Svarupa is eternal, but it is formed by the sadhaka's desires.

Since Krsna is tri kala jna He knows before us how we will choose to serve Him.

Please see this link:

https://bhakti-tattva.blogspot.com/.../jiva-palavra-final...

2 - Bhagavatam 10 canto says aṅga-saṅga — by their conjugal association. Bhagavatam does not give all the details nor does it mention Radharani. But it's all there.

3 - now the most important thing.

AGAIN

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti is very clear in Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7.

He says the sadhaka must take birth in Bhauma Lila to get perfection.

Please, could you say to WHOM he is referring to?

Why do not you answer? I've asked so many times.

PLEASE ANSWER THIS OR OUR CONVERSATION ENDS HERE.

====================

Ahhhh

The "Very Special Guru" touches the disciple's head and he/she attains Siddhi without having to go through all the steps explained by Srila Visvanatha in Raga Vartma Candrika....

This is very common in India. This kind of "special mercy" from "special Gurus".

Good luck with "Krpa Siddha"!!!

I prefer Sadhana Siddha.

====================

"Some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Krsna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled."

(Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti - Prema Bhakti Candrika, 1.9)

====================

I think your comment is fine. Yes, it is the same Siddha deha just in different phases. Yes, that's it.

There are only two points where we have a little disagreement:

1 - you want to impose that without Siddha Pranali it is not possible to practice Raganuga bhakti. And this is not true. Bilvamangala Thakhura meditated on his Siddha Deha without receiving Siddha Pranali.

2 - you assert without sastric basis that there is no Nikunja Vihar in Prakata lila.

Jaiva Dharma 38:

"Vijaya: Prabhu, I understand that there are two types of krsnalila, namely prakata (manifest) and aprakata (unmanifest), but that they are still one and the same tattva. Now, please explain to me the types of prakata-vraja-lila.

Gosvami: There are two types of prakata-vraja-lila: nitya (eternal) and naimittika (occasional). The Vraja pastimes that take place during the eight periods of the day and night (asta-kaliya-lila) are actually nitya-lila, whereas Krsna’s killing Putana, and His long sojourn away from Vraja in Mathura and Dvaraka, are naimittikalilas."

====================

First you say that a practitioner who receives Siddha deha and Prema from a Rasika Guru no longer needs to be born in Bhauma lila.

Then you say the opposite:

====================

I will say one last thing.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti in Ragma Vartma Candrika explains that with this material body it is not possible to reach the last stages of Prema.

He speaks nothing of a "Rasika Guru" who "gives complete Prema".

Srila Visvanatha is very clear. The practitioner has to be born again AS A MANJARI in Bhauma lila, where the pastimes of the Gopis and Manjaris in Nikunja vihara are taking place in Prakata lila for him/her to complete the training.

It's very clear !!!

ENOUGH !!! Our conversation ends here.

====================

Kripa-kanika Vyakhya - Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 by Srila Ananta das Babaji:

"The stages above prema, from sneha up to mahabhava, that are required to attain personal service in the mood of the gopis, can only appear in a transcendental gopi-body, for a sadhaka body is unable to tolerate the coolness of meeting with Sri Krishna or the heat of separation from Him.

The words ‘vraje’bhavan’, meaning “taking birth in Vraja”, must be understood to mean that the sadhana siddhas appear in the womb of a gopika in the same way as the eternally beloved Vraja-vadhus of Sri Krishna appear during the manifest pastimes.

Previously it has been said that the sadhana siddhas take birth from the wombs of gopis just as the nitya-siddha krishna-priyas do during Krishna’s manifest pastimes, and that in such bodies they attain sneha, mana and all the other stages leading up to maha-bhava, on the strength of their association with the nitya siddhas.

In a sadhaka deha it is not possible to practise the higher stages of prema like sneha and mana, and without the advent of mahabhava the personal service of Sri Krishna in the mood of a gopi is not possible.

Here one may ask: the raganuga bhajana of those who practise sakhi or manjari bhava is performed by meditating on one’s guru-given siddha svarupa and by establishing one’s self-identification with it.

When prema is attained the sadhaka has established a full self-identification as such and, forgetting his sadhaka body, he perceives his siddha svarupa day and night.

Why is there any further need then for taking birth from the womb of a gopi, after already attaining prema? They should get gopi-bodies in the unmanifest (spiritual) world, and there they should attain personal service after gradually going up the stages like sneha and mana to mahabhava on the strength of associating with the nitya siddhas.”

To this question the author replies: “Without taking birth from the womb of a gopi it is impossible to nourish the human-like pastimes, because without knowing whose daughter, whose daughter-in-law and whose wife this is one can never have human-like acquaintance and customs with each other.

We can find corresponding prayers of the mahajanas: kobe vrishabhanupure, ahiri gopera ghare, tanaya hoiya janamibo? yavate amara kobe, e pani grahana hobe, vasati koribo kobe tay? “When will I be born as a daughter in the house of a cowherd in Vrishabhanupura (Barsana)? When will I be married in Yavata and when will I live there?” and so on (Srila Thakura Mahasaya).

If someone says: “What is the harm in taking birth from the womb of a gopi in the unmanifest pastimes? All the pastimes in the aprakata prakasa are after all just the same as the pastimes in the prakata prakasa!”

The answer to this is that it is not possible, since sadhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into Vrindavana’s unmanifest pastimes.

That is a siddha bhumi, an abode reserved for accomplished souls. Only they can enter there, and not the sadhakas, or those who are still developing in practice. Therefore how can stages like sneha and mana be practised there?

For this reason Sri Krishna’s Yogamaya, who can accomplish the impossible, places the sadhaka in the womb of a gopi in Sri Krishna’s manifest pastimes in Sri Vrindavana, that are visible to the material eyes, after they have attained prema and before they attain Sri Krishna’s association, and here they can reach perfection in sneha and mana and so on.

We can see that sadhaka bhaktas, siddhas and even ordinary people can enter into the visible manifestation of Sri Vrindavana on the earth, therefore this place is both sadhaka bhumi and siddha bhumi.

Here one may doubt that: Sri Krishna, the Original Personality of Godhead, descends in Vraja once in a day of Brahma and then performs His pastimes.

In one day of Brahma there are fourteen Manvantaras, and Sri Krishna’s manifest pastimes take place once at the end of the Dvapara yuga in the 28th Caturyuga of the seventh Manvantara.

Where and in what condition will the eager devotee, who has developed prema, stay all these days, after he gives up his body in a universe where he will have to wait many ages before Sri Krishna’s manifest pastimes commence again? It will be impossible for him to wait that long!

The answer to this is that the Lord will be kind to such a loving devotee, who has been very eager to attain His personal devotional service for so long, and when the devotee leaves his body He will once grant him His audience along with His associates, and will also give him a little of his long-desired devotional service, even though he has not attained the manifestations of prema known as sneha and mana.

There is an example in the Srimad Bhagavata of the Lord giving a single darsana to Narada Muni, after he attained prema in his previous birth as the son of a maidservant.

Certainly this will not occur again and again, therefore there is a consolation in such an event that he will swiftly attain the kingdom of devotional service and attain his coveted service there.

In this instance we see Sri Narada once attaining the darsana of the Lord, and when he became eager to see the Lord again, the Lord consoled him with the following unembodied words – sakrid yad darsitam rupam etam kamaya te’nagha mat kamah sanakaih sadhuh sarvan muncati hricchayan sat sevaya dirghayapi jata mayi dridha matih ‘hitvavadyam imam lokam ganta maj janatam asi

(S.B. 1.6.23-24)

“O sinless one! I showed you this form of Mine once, just to increase your desire to see Me! When the desire to see Me and to serve Me has arisen the devotee gradually gives up all desires for sense gratification. You have become fixed in Me simply by serving My devotees for a short while. Thus you will swiftly give up this material world and attain My abode as one of My associates.”

The Lord also gives the desired gopi-body to a loving devotee who worships Him in the mood of a gopi.

Yogamaya makes this body appear from the womb of a gopi at the time when Sri Krishna’s associates appear in Sri Vrindavana’s manifest pastimes.

There won’t be even the slightest delay in this, because Sri Krishna’s manifest pastimes are constantly revolving within the innumerable material universes, just like a firebrand, without interruption.

Not only that, each and every manifest pastime is also eternal. This means that as soon as the pastime of Krishna’s advent or His killing of Putana is completed it will commence again in some other material universe.

In this way each and every pastime is eternal, just like the ever-revolving firebrand.

Therefore as soon as the sadhaka leaves his body, Yogamaya will grant him birth from a gopi’s womb in Vraja, in a universe where Sri Krishna has manifest Himself.

tatraivasyam eva vrajabhumau “There, in that Vrajabhumi.” This sentence means that the holy dhama is a manifestation of Sri Krishna’s sandhini-sakti, His existence potency, and is all-pervading like Sri Krishna.

This dhama is one and is simultaneously present in the spiritual world and in all the material universes.

sarvopari sri gokula vrajaloka dhama; sri goloka svetadvipa vrindavana nama sarvaga ananta vibhu krishna tanu sama; uparyadho vyapi ache nahika niyama brahmande prakasa tara krishnera icchaya; ekai svarupa tara nahi dui kaya (C.C.)

“Above all there is Sri Gokula, Vrajaloka-dhama, which is also called Sri Goloka, Svetadvipa and Vrindavana. This abode is all-pervading and endless, just like Krishna’s body; it extends above and below without any fixed rule. By Krishna’s wish it is manifest in the material universe in one form, not two.”

Therefore it is not so that the dhama is different when it is situated in another universe. Thus there is no need for the eager and anxious loving devotees to worry – by Sri Krishna’s wish they should know themselves to be in an all-auspicious situation."

====================

This is not imaginary because we are talking about a devotee situated in nistha, who has chanted for many years and is fixed. All the desires that arise from this devotee are not imagination.

This doubt: is this my form in the spiritual world? Doesn't make any sense.

What the sadhaka desires in the Nistha stage is what he/she has in the spiritual world.

There is no reason to have doubts about this.

=====================

Yes.

"Disciple: So Śrīla Prabhupāda, a neophyte devotee, he may think that it could be very good to be a friend of Kṛṣṇa, but he can really be a blade of grass and will be completely satisfied when he reaches this stage?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No. But when, at the time of devotional service, if such an impetus comes, it means that he has this relationship. And he must develop it. That's all. This means that the real relationship with Kṛṣṇa is gradually emerging. It is being developed. Therefore, it is necessary to develop it, following in the footsteps of Kṛṣṇa's friends in Vṛndāvana. This is described here."

(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Lecture 6.3.16-17, Gorakhpur, February 18, 1971)

Jaiva Dharma 21:

"Vrajanatha: Which type of raganuga-bhakti do we have the adhikara to adopt?

Babaji: My son, you should scrutinize your own svabhava, and then you will see the corresponding type of devotion for which you are qualified. A particular ruci will awaken according to your svabhava, and you should pursue the rasa that is indicated by that ruci. In order to cultivate that rasa, you should follow one of Krsna’s eternal associates who is perfect in it. To determine rasa, it is only necessary to examine your own ruci. If your ruci is towards the path of raga, then you should act according to that ruci; and as long as inclination has not awakened for the path of raga, you should simply execute the principles of vaidhi-bhakti with firm faith.

Vijaya: Prabhu, I have been studying Srimad-Bhagavatam for a long time, and I listen to krsna-lila whenever and wherever I find the opportunity. Whenever I deliberate on krsna-lila, a strong bhava arises within my heart to serve the Divine Couple as Lalita-devi does.

Babaji: You need not say any more. You are a manjari (young maidservant) of Lalita-devi. Which service do you like?

Vijaya: I desire that Srimati Lalita-devi should grant me permission to string garlands of flowers. I shall string lovely garlands of beautiful delicate flowers, and place them in Lalita Sakhi’s lotus hands. She will look upon me with an infinitely merciful, love laden glance, and then she will place the garlands around the necks of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.

Babaji: I give you my blessings that you may attain perfection in the goal for which you are undertaking your sadhana.

When Vijaya heard Babaji Mahasaya’s affectionate benediction, he fell at the lotus feet of his preceptor and wept. Seeing his emotional state, Babaji said, “Go on continually practicing raganuga-sadhana-bhakti with this same feeling, and externally follow the conduct laid down according to the rules of vaidhisadhana-bhakti, in a regular way.”

When Vrajanatha saw Vijaya Kumara’s spiritual wealth, he folded his hands and humbly said, “My master, whenever I meditate on Sri Krsna’s pastimes, a desire arises in my heart to serve Him by following in the footsteps of Subala.”

Babaji: Which service do you like?

Vrajanatha: When the calves wander far off to graze, I would very much like to bring them back in the company of Subala. When Krsna sits in a place to play upon His flute, I will take the permission of Subala to let the cows drink water, and then I will bring them to Bhai (Brother) Krsna. This is my heart’s desire.

Babaji: I give you the benediction that you will attain Krsna’s service as a follower of Subala. You are eligible to cultivate the sentiment of friendship (sakhya-rasa)."

====================

This is exactly what BSST says in his letter. You need to confirm with the Guru:

"Those who say that they can teach or reveal this identity are practicing a kind of deception; it cannot be done.

On the other hand, if a devotee receives some inspiration after sincerely chanting for a long time, he should go to the Sad-guru or advanced devotees and ask for it to be confirmed and purified by them."

====================

there are two ways for this.

We have two approaches concerning the Guru's part in revealing the particular form of the initiate's Siddha Rūpa.

1 - one approach contend that the Guru, by means of his meditative vision, has the ability to see which character in the eternal Līlā the disciple has.

At the time of initiation, the Guru reveales to the initiate the detailed form of his Siddha Rūpa as seen in the world of the Līlā by perfected meditators.

2 - The second approach guru and disciple work together to establish Siddha deha.

"If one’s preferences differ, the Guru will make changes. If on the other hand the disciple does not like it, he should openly tell his spiritual master what he would prefer. The Guru will consider the matter and give him another identity, and if the disciple likes it, also reveal his own."

(Hari-nāma Cintāmaṇi, 15.72-73)

"When the spiritual master is ascertaining the aspirant’s pure personal inclinations, the aspirant should also help the spiritual master by speaking his mind about his own preferences. As long as he has not clearly established the disciple’s inclinations, the Guru’s directions are not flawless. The inclinations that have been shaped by one’s meritorious deeds, through both this and previous lives, are called ruci or taste. This particular inclination is integral to the soul. Should a person not have a natural inclination for Śṛṅgāra-rasa, but for servitude or friendship, then he should be instructed accordingly; if not there will be undesirable consequences."

(Hari-nāma Cintāmaṇi, Notes of Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura to 15.72-73)

====================

"The real question is whether the Sādhaka has any input into the matter. I think the answer to this is clearly yes. That's what Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura says in Hari Nāma Cintāmaṇi, and that was Lalita Prasāda Ṭhākura's system also. He was more pleased by a disciple who knew what he wanted that by one who passively accepted whatever was given."

(Bhaktivinoda Parivara)

====================

Srila Prabhupada and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta teach the same as BRS. The only issue is that they strongly emphasize only after Anartha Nrvitti. Everything else is the same.

Regarding Siddha Pranali. In fact, we do not find any reference in the BRS and in the writings of the Gosvamis. We find meditation in Siddha Deha but not Siddha Pranali. This came later with the Paddhati of Dyanacandra. But it is a valid method. But it is not the only method to practice Raganuga bhakti.

And it’s not just at IGM that it’s not practiced. In the Parivara of Gadadhara Pandita of Satyanarayana das Babaji there is no Siddha Pranali. And other Parivaras also don't have it. And others have.

When Srila Prabhupada speaks ill of Siddha Pranali it is not the method itself. But from its misuse. Cheaply. Just that.

It is an authentic method and is part of the tradition. But it's not the only one.

====================

Jagannath Misra Das: "Seems to me that genuine qualification is lobha, or greed, to attain what is being freely offered to us. It' too easy to basically cheat yourself by thinking your not qualified."

====================

There is a very common misconception that Raganuga bhakti can only be started when the practitioner is "completely pure".

Someone who thinks like this will never start Raganuga bhakti, because in Nistha there are still Anarthas, in Ruci there are still Anarthas, in Asakti there are still Anarthas. Even in Bhava there are Anarthas.

So the practitioner should start Raganuga bhakti in Nistha and gradually purify himself/herself. It's part of Sadhana Bhakti.

This is why Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in his letter says:

"Anartha-nivṛtti is not our Prayojana. Do not let your days pass in simply trying for Anartha-nivṛtti."

====================

Technically, there are two types of Prema Bhakti:

1 - Mahatmya Jnana Prema

2 - Kevala Prema

Mahatmya Jnana Prema means "Prema based on the knowledge of the opulences of the Lord", and is experienced in a mood of great respect and reverence.

This type of Bhava is only attained through Vaidhi Sadhana Bhakti.

Kevala Prema means "Prema unmixed with the opulences of the Lord", and is experienced in a more intimate mood.

This type of Bhava is only attained through Raganuga Sadhana Bhakti.

And yes, in both the path of Vaidhi and Raganuga there is love.

Aisvarya Prema Bhakti and Madhurya Prema Bhakti.

====================

The glimpse of Siddha-deha occurs only in the advanced stage of Bhava.

But the glimpse into Bhava only occurs because there has been cultivation in earlier stages. We will get a glimpse of what we cultivate.

For example. If during Sadhana while chanting Hare Krsna the devotee develops a desire to have the service of making garlands for Radha Krsna, when he/she gets a glimpse of the Siddha-deha in the advanced stage of Bhava, this is the service he/she will have.

That's why there is a sequence:

1- Siddha-deha aimed at Nistha, Ruci, Asakti.

2- Realization of Siddha-deha in Bhava (svarupa siddhi). First glimpses of the Siddha-deha.

3- Final realization of Siddha-deha in Prema (vastu siddhi).

====================

We should remeber that there is no inherent or dormant prema or rasa in the jiva. What exists is a potential for this.

A lower sakti (jiva sakti tatastha) cannot contain a higher sakti (svarupa sakti).

We can at most say that there is an indirect dormancy or inherence. In the sense that Krsna knows past, present and future tri-kala-jna, He knows how we will choose to serve Him and therefore there is an eternal form dedicated to each jiva. This form is there and always has been. From our point of view here, it is inactive. But there, it is active. Because there is nothing inactive in the spiritual world.

But both Krsna and this form have no influence on the rasa the sadhaka will choose to serve here during the sadhana.

It's like someone reading a barometer. Whoever reads the barometer can predict the weather but cannot change the weather.

What determines which rasa the sadhaka will have is the association received in other lives and in this life.

====================

I watched both videos and also read all the articles (there are 18) in the following link that deal with the same topic:

https://harmonist.us/2022/09/the-history-of-a-debate/...

====================

Conclusion:

There are two types of devotees:

1 - Those devotees who consider that prema and bhakti are not inherent in the jiva.

2 - Those devotees who simultaneously consider that prema and bhakti are inherent in the jiva and that at the same time prema and bhakti are bestowed to the jiva.

====================

Both 1 and 2 agree that the conditioning of the jiva is anadi.

"Manavalamamuni and Bhaktivinoda agree that the conditioning of the jiva is anadi." (Sundara Gopal)

====================

Both 1 and 2 agree that the jiva does not fall from the spiritual world.

====================

"Svarupa is lost to the jiva. Manavalamamuni speaks, uses the language of rememberibg and forgetting. So the jiva in this world in bondage has forgotten his svarupa and then he speaks about regaing one svarupa but then Manavalamamuni stops himself and he apologizes. The jiva has been in this world in bondage from a time without beginning, anadi. We all accept that. So if i say the jiva is remembering his svarupa or is regaining his svarupa it would suggest he has his svarupa already previously? Manavalamamuni said NO, NO think like that. The jiva has been in bondage from a time without begining." (Sundara Gopal)

That is, those who defend inheritance and bestowal simultaneously do not say that the jiva has an inherent rasa. The jiva never had a relationship with Krsna.

What the jiva has, according to them, is a teleological inheritance.

"With the respect to the discussion so far on whether bhakti is inherent or inherented is predicated on the idea that Bhaktivinoda Thakura is expressing physical inherence through locus and that is a foundational error. It leads to the idea that the jiva already have prema right now, but that is not what Bhaktivinoda Thakura is saying. Thakura Bhaktivinoda is expressing teleological inherence (if you open a mango seed you will not find a mango tree. or the acorns pure POTENTIAL. The purpouse of an acorn is to become an oak tree)." (Sundara Gopal)

====================

My position: saying that we have inherent prema right now in us, or a physical inherence is wrong. And this is confirmed by Sundara Gopal.

Teleological inheritance (potential to have prema) is acceptable (which was already my position of indirect inheritance). Also confirmed by Sundara Gopal.

====================

The different positions of the two groups: inherent and bestowed, does not affect the process of cultivating Siddha-deha in any way.

Both 1 and 2 agree that the Sadhaka must cultivate his/her Siddha-deha (begins to do so in Nistha) and has first glimpses in Bhava (Svarupa-siddhi) and final realization in Prema (Vastu-siddhi).

====================

remember Putana...she approached Krishna with an intention to murder...but Krishna sucked out her poison, and bestowed upon her the position of a mother in Goloka....just approach Krishna, don't worry too much about what is in your heart.

====================

Sesatva is the same thing that Krsna Dasa Kaviraja says in CC jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa.

This simply means an indirect teleological inherence. This is not a physical inherence. It's just the potential and purpose of the jiva to be a servant. This is eternal, it is one of the 21 attributes of the jiva.

But the conditioning of the jiva is anadi. We never had a relationship with Krishna. There is no prema or rasa inherent in baddha jiva.

What will determine the rasa with which we serve in the spiritual world is the association we receive in this material world.

And so the Sadhaka chooses a Rasa due to the association received and builds his/her Siddha-deha.

Sadhaka must cultivate his/her Siddha-deha (begins to do so in Nistha) and has first glimpses in Bhava (Svarupa-siddhi) and final realization in Prema (Vastu-siddhi).

"The jiva has been in this world in bondage from a time without beginning, anadi. We all accept that. So if i say the jiva is remembering his svarupa or is regaining his svarupa it would suggest he has his svarupa already previously? Manavalamamuni said NO, NO think like that. The jiva has been in bondage from a time without begining." (Sundara Gopal)

====================

Who's talking about doing something prematurely?

We are talking about a devotee in Nistha.

Whatever a devotee in Nistha desires is not premature.

Example to make it clear:

A devotee after chanting for 20, 30, 40 YEARS is in Nistha and develops a desire to serve the Divine Couple by making garlands.

He approaches the Guru and says, "Dear Gurudeva, I have been chanting for the last 40 YEARS and a desire has arisen to serve the Divine Couple eternally by making garlands for Them."

The Guru will respond, "Wonderful, continue serving like this."

The same with the 11 aspects of Ekadas Bhava, which are all desired by the Sadhaka.

===================

There is no need to be in doubt: "Ah, is this my eternal service? Isn't there another one?"

This question doesn't make any sense. If the devotee in Nistha has these desires, this is what he/she will have when he/she attains perfection.

The first glimpses only in the advanced stage of Bhava of what was desired during Sadhana.

====================

(Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam Lecture 6.3.16-17, Gorakhpur, February 18, 1971)

====================

Jaiva Dharma 21:

"Vrajanatha: Which type of raganuga-bhakti do we have the adhikara to adopt?

Babaji: My son, you should scrutinize your own svabhava, and then you will see the corresponding type of devotion for which you are qualified. A particular ruci will awaken according to your inherent svabhava, and you should pursue the rasa that is indicated by that ruci. In order to cultivate that rasa, you should follow one of Krsna’s eternal associates who is perfect in it. To determine rasa, it is only necessary to examine your own ruci. If your ruci is towards the path of raga, then you should act according to that ruci; and as long as inclination has not awakened for the path of raga, you should simply execute the principles of vaidhi-bhakti with firm faith.

Babaji: You need not say any more. You are a manjari (young maidservant) of Lalita-devi. Which service do you like?

Babaji: I give you my blessings that you may attain perfection in the goal for which you are undertaking your sadhana.

When Vijaya heard Babaji Mahasaya’s affectionate benediction, he fell at the lotus feet of his preceptor and wept. Seeing his emotional state, Babaji said,

“Go on continually practicing raganuga-sadhana-bhakti with this same feeling, and externally follow the conduct laid down according to the rules of vaidhisadhana-bhakti, in a regular way.”

Babaji: Which service do you like?

Babaji: I give you the benediction that you will attain Krsna’s service as a follower of Subala. You are eligible to cultivate the sentiment of friendship (sakhya-rasa)."

===================

More evidence - Three Siddha Bodies !!!

We must understand that the instruction given by a Guru 30, 40, 50 YEARS ago is one thing.

In all this time have not his/her disciples at least reached Nistha? What kind of disciples are these?

====================

Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī states that after 15 - 20 years of chanting the devotee should enter the path of Rāgānugā-bhakti. By chanting all this time, he/she is already in Niṣṭhā. There's no need to hesitate.

===================

There is a very common misconception, especially among some devotees, that one should chant the Maha Mantra until Bhava and then a "voice appears from the sky" and says: "This is your Siddha-deha".

But the fact is that this is not how it is explained by the Acaryas.

The Sadhaka can chant 128 rounds a day for 300 lives, but if there is no voluntary cultivation at the time of Sadhana there will be no glimpse of anything in Bhava.

The rule is very simple. We achieve in the perfect phase what we cultivated in the Sadhana phase.

Whoever cultivates nothing achieves nothing.

The sequence is the same Siddha-deha in 3 phases:

1 - Cultivation of Siddha-deha in Nistha, Ruci, Asakti

2 - Glimpse of the Siddha-deha in Bhava (Svarupa siddhi)

3 - Final realization of Siddha-deha in Prema (Vastu siddhi)

====================

Sri Jiva Gosvami:

tatra bhūta-śuddhir nijābhilaṣita bhagavat sevaupayika tat pārṣada-deha bhāvanā paryantaiva tat sevaika puruṣārthibhiḥ kāryā nijānukūlyāt (Bhakti Sandarbhaḥ – 286):

"Here the bhūta śuddhih of the devotees is explained. This means thinking of one’s own desired spiritual body, in which one associates with the Lord and which is suitable for serving Him. The real bhūta śuddhi for a devotee is to think himself/herself in his/her own siddha svarūpa. This way of thinking is favorable for those who know that the highest goal of life is to serve God.”

====================

Kṛṣṇadāsa Kavirāja in Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.108.155-6:

mane (mind) nija (desired) siddha-deha kariyā bhāvana (thinking of), think of your own desired siddha deha as a sādhana, ei sādhana bhakti dui ta prakāra.

====================

"A grassworm confined in a hole of a wall by a bee always thinks of the bee in fear and enmity and later becomes a bee simply because of such remembrance."

(SB 7.1.28-29)

The Sādhaka will reach the body in which he/she meditates during Sādhana.

If you do not meditate at all, will not achieve anything.

There is a species of wasp (wasps belong to the same classification as bees) that lays its eggs in a worm.

====================

The only requirement that the Acaryas recommend for starting Raganuga Bhakti is the awakening of Lobha. Nothing more.

When Lobha awakens (usually in Nistha), after chanting for many years, all desires thereafter are not "imagination of the material mind".

From then on, the Sadhaka aims to follow an eternal associate and meditates on his/her internal Siddha-deha body "constructed (Parikalpya)" with the guidance of the Guru.

Lobha is also gradual. In the beginning, the Sadhaka only contemplates the 11 aspects of his/her Siddha-deha. As Lobha intensifies, the meditation intensifies.

But some say that when Lobha awakens, one can only aim to follow an associate without contemplating Siddha-deha. According to them, this is only possible at the end of Asakti.

Or in other words, according to them, it is possible to aspire in the phases of Nistha, Ruci, to be a Manjari. But it is not possible to aim for all the details of Ekadas Bhava. This will only be cultivated at the end of Asakti.

But again, the only requirement that the Acaryas recommend for initiating Raganuga Bhakti and consequent contemplation of Siddha-deha, is the awakening of Lobha. Nothing more.

In fact, Srila Bhaktivinoda in Harinama Cintamani 15.93 explains that meditation on Siddha-deha is ==== inconstant, interrupted and distracted ==== in Nistha (Smarana) and concentrated in Asakti (Dhyana) and very concentrated in Bhava (Anusmrti).

Srila Bhaktivinoda makes it very clear that meditation and contemplation of Siddha-deha begins in Nistha and progresses. Smarana, Dharana, Dhyana, Anusmrti, Samadhi.

If contemplation and meditation on Siddha-deha were to be done only at the end of Asakti, Srila Bhaktivinoda would not say that in Smarana this remembrance is inconstant, interrupted and distracted.

In Asakti there is a great and deep attachment. At this stage there is nothing "inconstant, interrupted and distracted".

===================

In fact, having the mercy of being able to constantly associate with a Rasika devotee or a Rasika Guru that are fixed in a specific Rasa tremendously accelerates progression in the levels of Bhakti.

With such powerful association the Sadhaka practitioner advances much faster through Nistha, Ruci, Asakti.

====================

O exemplo da seguinte citação representa "querer ser mais papista que o Papa":

"When a devotee attains nistha, while chanting the Holy Name, he experiences a sphurti (vision) of the form of Sri Krsna reflected in the mirror of his citta, along with some opulent qualities. If a devotee does not experience this, he did not yet attain nistha.

The sweet qualities of Sri Krsna and the associates of Vraja appear reflected in the citta in the stage of ruci.

Now the devotee can follow the verse “Krsnam smaran janancasya” and begin the actual sadhana of raganuga bhakti by being absorbed in realizing the sweetness of the associate he wishes to follow. This is a real experience, not a vague theoretical book understanding of a generic associate.

As he becomes progressively more absorbed in realizing a particular Vraja associate, asakti appears. In the stage of asakti, there a sphurti (vision) of lila and the first realization of the abhasa of his own siddha-rupa. This is the process of attaining the siddha-rupa. It is not by imagination. Then by serving internally in his siddha-rupa, gradually the devotee attains bhava.

If someone does not experience Sri Krsna and his associates while chanting then he is nowhere near raganuga sadhana. One who thinks that the material mind, which is a transformation of the tamasika element of ahankara, is capable of visualizing anything transcendental is hopelessly confused regarding the difference between prakrti (matter) and the aprakrta-vastu (spiritual substance). One cannot follow an eternal associate without having the darshana of that associate.

Bhajana without internal darshana is simply shooting arrows in the dark- āndāje tila mārā .

All these stages manifest naturally for one who remains in sadhu-sanga, continually hearing hari-katha and chanting at least one or two lakhs harinama daily." (Prema Prayojana Dasa)

MAIS PAPISTA QUE O PAPA !!!

Aṣṭottara-Śata Blog

Arquivo

sábado, 27 de abril de 2024

Três Corpos Siddha - Three Siddha Bodies = Comentários/Comments

Buscar