And the question is why to force priya narma sakhas to be in the same position of the sakhis and manjaris? Why? They are not !!!
Sunny Gidwani: It's always mentained, mentioned, spoken, tought by Shri Krishna Balram Mandir that Priya-narma-sakhas taste Mahabhav upto an extent. Never ever they say that Priya-narma-sakhas feel Mahabhav like manjaris. The question was wether Priya-narma-sakhas were capable of experiencing and revealing Madhurya rasa in the mood of Shrila Rupa Goswami and the answer was simple that they sometimes are tadatmya with Shrimati Raadhika they experience Madhurya rasa to an extent. They taste SOMETHING of her Mahabhav. Shrila Gurudev even referred to Subal as Subal GOPI at that time. Shri Krishna Balram Mandir never ever Said that Priya-narma-sakhas are In Madhurya Rasa like manjaris. No body is forcing priya narma sakhas in Madhurya Rasa details. This is your understanding. Please read carefully and then comment. But Siddhanta is that Priya-narma-sakhas can touch Madhurya rasa which is being denied by many by saying that Priya-narma-sakhas are not in Madhurya Rasa at all. Swaroop and Bhaav are two different things. Some people can say that Bhaav is according to the Swaroop but sometimes Bhaav can be different from the Swaroop on special occasions. People who want to follow Madhurya rasa should approach a Guru in Madhurya Rasa and any bonafide Guru will irrespective of his own Bhaav will teach Madhurya Rasa to all as that's the highest and will arrange for a Guru with Madhurya Bhaav for that devotee As you said there are differences and each Sadhaka should be instructed accordingly similarly each Sadhaka has different level of understanding and takes SiDhanta in a different way but that does not change the sidhanta.
This was an answer to those who think and say that Priya-narma-sakhas are not in Madhurya Rasa. They are in Madhurya rasa to an extent and difference will be there. Whatever text you have taken from the Shastras have already been stated, discussed in the past by the Sadhus of Shri Krishna Balram mandir. Dandvat Pranaams.
"Vijaya: Please describe the anubhavas of sambhoga.
Gosvami: The anubhavas of sambhoga are: seeing each other (sandarsana), talking (jalpana), touching (sparsana), blocking each others way in a solitary place (raha-vartma-rodhana), rasa-lila, pleasure pastimes in Vrndavana (vrndavana-krida), playing in the Yamuna (yamuna-jale keli), boat pastimes (nauka-vilasa), pastimes of stealing flowers (puspa-caurya-lila), pastimes of demanding taxes (dana-lila), hide-and-seek in the kunjas (kunje lukocuri-khela), drinking honey wine (madhu-pana), Krsna dressing in female attire (stri-vesa-dharana), pretending to sleep (kapata-nidra), gambling (dyuta-krida), pulling off each others garments (vastraakarsana),
kissing (cumbana), embracing (alingana), making nailmarks (nakha-arpana), drinking the nectar of the lips that are like bimba fruit (bimba-adhara-sudha-pana), and enjoying amorous
union (nidhu-vane ramana-samprayoga)."
(Jaiva Dharma 38)
These details are not intended to be heard by priya narma sakhas.
Priya narma sakhas feel what Radha feels to a certain extent. Then go no further.
The only problem is that some devotees argue that Gurus in the priya narma sakha humor can instruct about all madhurya rasa details. But in fact they can not. As a Guru in dasya rasa for example also can not.
We have nothing against other Rasas. I think you misunderstood.
All rasas are wonderful and fulfill their role.
But Gurus in priya narma sakha mood should send theirs disciples in madhurya rasa for a guru in madhurya rasa.
Only that.
And therefore disciples in madhurya rasa mood followers of Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami, who is a priya narma sakha as some devotees say, should seek refuge in another guru.
The sakhis and manjaris feel the same as Radharani feels in amorous union (ramana-samprayoga nidhu-vane). It is as if they are giving their spiritual body to Krsna.
Priya narma sakhas not deliver their spiritual bodies to Krsna in this way.
To participate in madhurya rasa up to the maximum limit you need a female form !!!
It is not a matter of higher and lower. All there are higher.
But every one in his/her place in the Lila.
priya-narma-sakhas like Subala serve srngara-rasa from the side of tat-tad-bhava-icchamayi gopi-bhava (manjari-bhava), but not sambhoga-icchamayi gopibhava.
And even tat-tad-bhava-icchamayi gopi-bhava (manjari-bhava) to some extent.
Of course they privy to extremely confidential secrets. They know but they do not feel.
Similarly, in Rupa Goswami’s Sri Ujjvala-nilamani it is stated:
"The priya-narma-sakhas know the most confidential secrets of Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis. Their love for Krsna IS ALMOST AS intense as the gopis’ love. "
Why do not put all the text?
"Vijaya: What are the symptoms of the priya-narma-sakhas?
Gosvami: They are privy to extremely confidential secrets and have taken shelter of the bhavas of the sakhis. Subala and Arjuna are prominent among Krsnas priya-narma-sakhas. Thus they are the best of all Krsnas friends. Among these five ceta, vita, vidusaka, pitha-mardda and priya-narma-sakha the cetas are in dasya-rasa, the pitha-marddas are in vira-rasa, and THE REST ARE IN SAKHYA RASA. The cetas are servants (kinkara) and THE OTHER FOUR ARE SAKHAS."
This is from chapter 32 of JD, where Guru Goswami is describing the 5 assistants (sahayakas) of Krsna (nayaka).
The 5 assistants OF KRSNA are ceta, vita, vidusaka, pitha-mardda, and priya-narma-sakhas.
Let me see if I can explain my intention.
Many devotees say Gurus in the mood of Priya Narma Sakhas may instruct all the details about Madhurya Rasa.
I guess you do not think so. But many think so. And it is fot these devotees to whom I am referring. Is it clear now?
When many followers of Srila Prabhupada left Iskcon to seek refuge in other Gurus in Madhurya Rasa, they were accused of betrayal of Srila Prabhupada.
These devotees were accused of not trusting that Srila Prabhupada could explain or guide them about Madhurya Rasa and that they could find everything in Srila Prabhupada's books.
And now as it has been proven (maybe) that Srila Prabhupada is a Priya Narma Sakha, shows that they were right. Priya Narma Sakhas as Srila Prabhupada can not guide about all the details of Madhurya Rasa. Only a brief summary.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari I have no problem with Srila Prabhupada being one priya narma sakha.
If someone feels attracted to serve in the mood of priya narma sakha, what's wrong? None.
What does not seem right to me is to force priya narma sakhas gurus and devotees in madhurya rasa details.
Priya narma sakhas are not fit for the esoteric details of madhurya rasa.
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Gosvami?>
PRIYA NARMA SAKHAS shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of MADHURYA RASA !!!
Therefore all Srila Prabhupada's followers who want to pursue Madhurya Rasa must approach a Guru in Madhurya Rasa.
Anyway, Guru Goswami did not explain the Madhurya Rasa details for Vrajanatha. Only to Vijaya.
Because the Bhava of Priya Narma Sakhas, although very high (Maha Bhava) is not the same as of the Manjaris.
The point is that according Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, sadhakas aspiring to be priya narma sakhas cannot hear intimate topics of madhurya rasa.
To some extent they can hear.
He goes on to say that sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas cannot hear the details of madhurya.
And in fact guru goswami only instructed vijay and not vrajanatha.
There are differences. And because there are differences each sadhaka should be instructed accordingly.
And only one guru in madhurya rasa can instruct on every detail taking into account the different sadhakas.
Guru goswami not explained to vrajanatha, but only for vijaya about madhurya rasa.
Well, guru goswami explained something about madhurya to vrajanatha. A brief summary.
So, topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
Gosto · Responder · 1 · 23/7 às 22:37
Ocultar 30 respostas
Uttamasloka Dasa Rupa Gosvami does not agree with some of your assertions. From Rupa Gosvami’s Radha-krsna-ganoddesa-dipika:
There are no confidential topics whatsoever about which these priya-narma-sakhas do not know. RKGD, 42
How do you explain what Rupa Gosvami said? Madhurya-rasa cannot function without the priya-narma-sakhas. That is the fact. They are integral to madhurya-rasa by their services.
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:52 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari My assertations Uttamasloka Dasa ???
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:48
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is very clear.
According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:50
Uttamasloka Dasa
I was referring to this one:
Priya narma sakhas are not fit for the esoteric details of madhurya rasa.
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:53
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari !!!!!!
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:54
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is very clear.
According to Bhaktivinoda Thakura topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:54
Uttamasloka Dasa So is Rupa Gosvami, our purva-acarya, very clear:
There are no confidential topics whatsoever about which these priya-narma-sakhas do not know. RKGD, 42
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:55 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Yes, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is wrong. like emoticon
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:55
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Ulises Guerrero brilliantly answered: "So it seems that priya-narma-sakhās are quite different even from the manjaris, because the manjaris although not accepting Kṛṣṇa's advances, they still have conjugal feelings. The cowherd boys are not even agitated, although completely aware of the conjugal affairs."
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:56
Uttamasloka Dasa
Not necessarily. Vrajanatha did not fully express his desire to be a priya-narma-sakha. He didn't mention anything about wanting to assist in madhurya-rasa, so his guru, taking note of this, instructed him accordingly. grin emoticon
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:56
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari He was a follower of SUBALA !!! C'mom !!!
Gosto · 23/7 às 23:03 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari And Guru Goswami knew that.
Gosto · 23/7 às 22:59 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari "Vrajanatha: prabhu, I am a follower of sri subala. I know that you will consider my eligibility to hear about madhurya rasa and instruct me appropriately.
Gosvami: The priya narma sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara rasa, to some extent. I will keep your qualification in mind and speak whatever is appropriate for you - not more, and I will say nothing unsuitable."
(Srila Bhaktivinoda JD 30)
Gosto · 23/7 às 23:09
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari And in THE END of the SAME chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
Gosto · 23/7 às 23:09
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari And for REAL, guru goswami explained madhurya rasa only for vijaya and not to vrajanatha.
Gosto · 23/7 às 23:09
Niscala Devi Dasi Both BVT and Rupa Goswami are correct (of course) There is nothing that the priya narma sakhas do not know about madhurya bhava, as expressed by Rupa G. But still, aspiring priya narma sakhas must be instructed differently, not because they are, or should be, lacking in knowledge of madhurya bhava, but because their role is to assist Subala. The guru will focus the disciple on Subala's mood, whrereas he will focus a disciple in madhurya bhava on the particular mood of teh sakhi he is taking shelter of. They cannot be instructed together at this point,.
The unsuitable content referred to by Guru Goswami is the content which focuses on Lalita's mood, specifically. That was suitable for Vijaya but not Vrajanatha.
Não gosto · 4 · Ontem às 3:13
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari To Subala the limits of his love can be found to extend up to mahabhava, BUT only until the beginning of Maha Bhava.
That is because Sadhakas and Gurus in priya narma sakha mood can have just a very brief summary of madhurya rasa.
Gosto · Ontem às 17:49 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari "Vrajanatha: prabhu, I am a follower of sri subala. I know that you will consider my eligibility to hear about madhurya rasa and instruct me appropriately.
Gosvami: The priya narma sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara rasa, TO SOME EXTENT. I will keep your qualification in mind and speak whatever is appropriate for you - not more, and I will say nothing unsuitable."
(Srila Bhaktivinoda JD 30)
And in THE END of the SAME chapter:
"Vijaya pondered deeply, sri guru gosvami has given us siksa about madhurya-rasa, but it was just a very brief summary. Let vrajanatha remain submerged in sakhya-rasa. At an appropriate time I will come alone to sri guru gosvami and hear his elaborate appreciation of madhurya-rasa."
Gosto · Ontem às 17:36 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Yes, they know everything that happens (Rupa Goswami). But this is very different. It simply means that priya narma sakhas know of any confidential pastimes of Krsna and not tell anyone.
A priya narma sakha has a friend (krsna) who has several girlfriends. They (priya narma) know all of this and even make arrangements for Him to meet with His girlfriends. And they are very happy (maha bhava) that He is enjoying with His girlfriends.
But the feeling that His girlfriends have for Him is exclusive of them. Only they can feel. Only they (sakhis and manjaris) are His girlfriends.
So, because of that, topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
Gosto · Ontem às 17:43 · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari That was exactly what guru goswami did. Because vrajanatha was in the mood of priya narma sakha following subala, he only received a brief summary of madhurya rasa.
Gosto · Ontem às 17:49
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari And the question is why to force priya narma sakhas to be in the same position of the sakhis and manjaris? Why? They are not !!!
Gosto · Ontem às 17:59
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari "Vijaya: Please describe the anubhavas of sambhoga.
Gosvami: The anubhavas of sambhoga are: seeing each other (sandarsana), talking (jalpana), touching (sparsana), blocking each others way in a solitary place (raha-vartma-rodhana), rasa-lila, pleasure pastimes in Vrndavana (vrndavana-krida), playing in the Yamuna (yamuna-jale keli), boat pastimes (nauka-vilasa), pastimes of stealing flowers (puspa-caurya-lila), pastimes of demanding taxes (dana-lila), hide-and-seek in the kunjas (kunje lukocuri-khela), drinking honey wine (madhu-pana), Krsna dressing in female attire (stri-vesa-dharana), pretending to sleep (kapata-nidra), gambling (dyuta-krida), pulling off each others garments (vastraakarsana), kissing (cumbana), embracing (alingana), making nailmarks (nakha-arpana), drinking the nectar of the lips that are like bimba fruit (bimba-adhara-sudha-pana), and enjoying amorous union (nidhu-vane ramana-samprayoga)."
(Jaiva Dharma 38)
These details are not intended to be heard by priya narma sakhas.
Priya narma sakhas feel what Radha feels to a certain extent. Then go no further.
Gosto · 23 h · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Guru goswami will explain all the details of madhurya rasa to vijaya who is a follower of lalita and then separately will explain BRIEFLY about madhurya rasa to Vrajanatha who is a follower of subala.
Gosto · 22 h · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
So, this is exactly the point. Priya narma sakhas not have all the knowledge of madhurya bhava. To some extent they have. Only to some extent.
"Gosvami: The priya narma sakhas are permitted to participate in the lilas of madhurya rasa, also known as srngara rasa, TO SOME EXTENT. I will keep your qualification in mind and speak whatever is appropriate for you - not more, and I will say nothing unsuitable."
Gosto · 22 h · Editado
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari And therefore disciples in madhurya rasa mood followers of Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami, who is a priya narma sakha as some devotees say, should seek refuge in another guru.
Gosto · 22 h
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari like emoticon
Gosto · 22 h
Niscala Devi Dasi Of course, our beloved Srila Prabhupada is no longer manifest to give us directions, so this is more or less irrelevant. We should always seek and pray for the personal association and guidance of more advanced devotees, especially those who are of the same rasa we aspire for.
However, that is not the only way to be guided. There are three types of guidance.
From RVC:
When this greed has appeared in the heart, one becomes enlightened in different ways. Uddhava
says in Śrīmad-bhāgavatam, 11.29.6:
“Kṛṣṇa reveals Himself through the ācārya or through the agency of the Supersoul.”
Thus, some devotees attain knowledge about the moods of Kṛṣṇa and His Vraja associates from
the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned rāgānugā devotee, and some, whose hearts
have been purified by the practice of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. They advance in great transcendental bliss, just as one sees a lusty man enjoying great pleasure when his desires are fulfilled.
The third type, who receives this knowledge in the heart from the caittya guru is one who has samskaras (impressions in the heart) from having taken proper association in his previous births.
He will be able to cultivate greed and achieve gopi-bhava by reading sastra; he will not have to rely on sastric logic to convince him. For such a person, this treatise will be the candrika for discovering the path of raganuga.
Não gosto · 2 · 15 h
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari When many followers of Srila Prabhupada left Iskcon to seek refuge in other Gurus in Madhurya Rasa, they were accused of betrayal of Srila Prabhupada.
These devotees were accused of not trusting that Srila Prabhupada could explain or guide them about Madhurya Rasa and that they could find everything in Srila Prabhupada's books.
And now as it has been proven (maybe) that Srila Prabhupada is a Priya Narma Sakha, shows that they were right. Priya Narma Sakhas as Srila Prabhupada can not guide about all the details of Madhurya Rasa. Only a brief summary.
Gosto · 2 h
Niscala Devi Dasi Of course they were right and the accusers of betrayal were wrong:
sampradaya-virodho 'yam davanalo vicintyate
“The eleventh obstacle for the Vaishnavas is sectarianism, which takes the shape of the forest fire.
Due to sectarianism a person cannot accept anyone outside of his own group as a Vaishnava, and
as a result he faces many obstacles in finding a guru and associating with sincere devotees.
Therefore extinguishing the forest fire is most important by giving up this mentality.”
The correct understanding is that guru is one, in many forms. If SP was instrumental in iginiting their bhakti fire in a general way, he should be worshipped, not rejected at any time, but guidance in one's specific rasa can be sought. One is not limited to one form. There is no betrayal, but we should honor ALL our gurus.
Não gosto · 2 · 2 h
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari Gaura Haribol !!!
So then we can say that Guru Goswami could not instruct Vrajanatha and Vijaya together because one was a follower of Subala and the other follower of Lalita.
But not only that !!!
Also because Sadhakas in Priya Narma Sakhas humor can only receive a brief summary of Madhurya Rasa.
Priya Narma Sakhas lack knowledge about all the details of Madhurya Rasa.
