Vrajanatha: El alma individual no es creado por Maya. Lo acepto. Maya tiene el poder de dominar el alma individual. Yo entiendo eso. Así que esta es mi pregunta: ¿La potencia espiritual (Cit Shakti) pone el alma individual en la frontera (tatastha) de la materia y el espíritu?
Babaji: No. Cit Shakti es la plena manifestación de la potencia del Señor Krishna. Todo lo que ella crea es eternamente perfecto.
Las jivas individuales NO SON eternamente perfectas.
Al participar en las actividades del servicio devocional (sadhana), pueden llegar a ser perfectas (Sadhana Siddha) y así disfrutar de la felicidad espiritual tal como disfrutan los seres (Nitya Siddha) eternamente perfectos.
Los cuatro tipos de amigas Gopis (Sakhi) de Srimati Radharani son seres eternamente perfectos (Nitya Siddha). Se manifiestan de la forma de Srimati Radharani, quien es Cit Shakti Ella misma.
Todas las almas espirituales individuales se manifiestan de la Jiva Shakti del Señor Krishna.
Cit Shakti es la potencia completa del Señor Krishna (Purna Shakti).
Las almas individuales (Jiva Shakti) se encuentran entre las potencias INCOMPLETAS del Señor Krishna (Apurna Shakti).
Desde la potencia completa manifiestanse cosas perfectas y completas. De la potencia incompleta todas las almas individuales, que son FRAGMENTOS ATÓMICOS DE CONCIENCIA manifiestanse.
El Señor Krishna manifiesta diferentes tipos de entidad según los diferentes tipos de poderes que utiliza para crearlas.
Cuando Él manifiesta Su Cit Shakti, Él aparece como Krishna y como Narayana, el maestro de Vaikuntha.
Cuando Él desea tener Sus servidores "nitya-parsada" en su plano trascendental Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha, etc, Él crea a través de Baladeva las eternas nitya-mukta jivas en los mundos divinos.
Cuando Él se manifiesta en Maya Shakti, Él aparece como las tres formas de Vishnu Kara?odakasayi, Garbhodakasayi Ksirodakasayi Vishnu y Vishnu.
En Vraja Él aparece en su forma original como Krishna, una forma manifiesta de Su plena potencia. Apareciendo como Baladeva, manifiesta su Sesa Tattva (la naturaleza del Señor Sesa). Asi Él manifiesta los ocho tipos de servicios que Le ofrecen los asociados eternamente liberados.
Él aparece de nuevo en Vaikuntha como Sesa Sankarsana y manifiesta los ocho tipos de servicios que Sus asociados eternos ofrecen al Señor Narayana.
El Señor Sankarsana encarna como Maha Vishnu. Se convierte en el lugar de descanso de la Jiva (Jiva Shakti) y aparece como la Superalma en el corazón de todas las almas individuales que residen en el mundo material.
Todas estas almas individuales son atraídas a Maya. Si bien no alcanzan la misericordia de la Suprema Personalidad de Dios, y se refugian en Hladini Shakti espiritual del Señor, son derrotadas por Maya. Innumerables almas son derrotadas por Maya y son presas de ella. Estas almas son los seguidores de las tres modalidades de Maya.
Así que podemos concluir: las almas individuales se manifiestan del Jiva Shakti. ELLAS NO SON MANIFIESTAS del Cit Shakti." (Jaiva Dharma)
1 - SEED:
In further reference to your question about the form of the spirit soul of the conditioned living entity: there is a spiritual form always, but it develops fully only when the living entity goes to Vaikuntha. This form develops according to the desire of the living entity. Until this perfectional stage is reached, the form is lying dormant as the form of the tree is lying dormant in the SEED.
(Letter to Rupanuga, 8 August, 1969)
Srila Prabhupada - "Majority, ninety percent, they are always good. They never fall down".
Esto ocurre cuando la Jiva emana de Maha Visnu en el Oceano Causal (Karana Samudra - Rio Viraja) que es completamente espiritual. 10% elijen la naturaleza material. 90 % elijen el mundo espiritual.
"On the other side of Brahmaloka is the spiritual karana-samudra, or Causal Ocean. The material energy exists on the other side of the Causal Ocean, without touching it. In the Causal Ocean is Maha-Visnu, the original purusa expansion from Sankarsana." (Srila Prabhupada CC Adi 5 Summary)
Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Adi 5.57
maya-sakti rahe karannabdhira bahire
karanna-samudra maya parasite nare
"Maya-sakti resides outside the Karana Ocean. Maya cannot touch its waters."
El Oceano Causal es Vaikuntha. La caida de la Jiva es en el plano espiritual.
Los Planetas Vaikunthas, el Brahmajyoti y el Karana Samudra son Maha Vaikuntha.
2 - Los "Fall Vadis" toman la citacion de Prabhupada de que en verdad somos Nitya Siddhas y de que estamos a soñar y solo necesitamos despertar y concluyen que estamos a tener un sueño húmedo en Goloka. JAJAJAJAJA
Esta es la interpretacion de los "Fall Vadis".
Claro que somos Nitya Siddhas y nuestra posicion ETERNA como sirvientes ETERNOS de Krsna esta ahora encubierta por el ego falso. La Jiva esta en el corazon.
3 - Dicen los "Rtviks Fall Vadis" que solo podemos aceptar un Guru Uttama Adhikari porque no cae. Pero un asociado directo de Krsna puede tener un sueño mojado. :D
Estos "Rtviks Fall Vadis" si que saben.
Porque voy a aceptar un Guru Uttama entonces si a qualquier momento por causa de su libre albedrio va abandonar Krsna.
Es que estos "Rtviks Fall Vadis" INCOMPETENTES quieren acabar incluso con los Gurus Uttama Adhikaris (a cualquier momento pueden abandonar Krsna).
Estos "Rtviks Fall Vadis" son un peligro. JAJAJAJAJA
4 - Los "Fall Vadis" te van a decir:
"They can fall down by their own free will, their intrinsic spiritual quality, not dependent on the action of an external force as maya. Their free will is exhibited not as a choice between spirit and matter, but to serve or not to serve."
JAJAJAJAJAJA
No es lo que dice Prabhupada:
"A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. THIS MISUSE OF INDEPENDENCE, WICH IS CALLED MAYA, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)
Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (Vedabase 731213mw.la)
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: YES,BUT THEY NOT MISUSED. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (Vedabase 670218CC.SF)
- Free will can be misused (for enjoying matter, senses and mind) or properly used (serving Krsna, loving Krsna)
- Free will exists in Vaikuntha, otherwise it would be like a prison and the inhabitants like robots
- In the process (krama) of the development of bhakti with the conditioned souls, they raise from sraddha to prema with a surrender (saranagathi) increasing progressively to become at last, fully surrendered. This is no more than the surrender of the misuse of the free will. The more bhakti increases, the more the free will is used correctly.
Conclusions from these statements:
- At the level of prema, the free will is used correctly, it is neither lost (because used), neither forced (because free). It is the irresistible influence of prema which inspires the correct use of the free will, nothing is lost nor forced.
- Bhakti implies automatically the correct used of free will
- The inhabitants of Vaikuntha, the nitya-siddha use always correctly their free will because they are at the level of prema
- Bhakti is part of the svarupa (fundamental constitution) of the jiva in Vaikuntha, and also the correct use of the free will. It is impossible to separate bhakti (including the correct use of the free will) from theses jivas.
Final conclusion:
- The inhabitants of Vaikunthas cannot fall in this material world.
Possible causes of the fall from Vaikuntha
1) ATTACK OF MAYA: impossible, there is no maya in Vaikuntha.
2) FREE WILL DECISION: impossible as showed above.
El libre albedrio es MAL utilizado cuando la emana de Maha Visnu en el Oceano Causal espiritual.
Conclusion: No existen sueños húmedos en Goloka.
5 - Aqui unas preguntitas pa los "Fall Vadis" contestaren:
(1) Are you, the soul, completely in Goloka, while you are in the material realm?
(2) Are you, the soul, completely in the material realm?
(3) Are you partly in Goloka and partly in the material realm?
(4) If partly here and there, then what part is in Goloka, and what is in the material realm?
(5) Are you sleeping on a bed in Goloka and dreaming you are in the material world?
(6) Are you not sleeping on a bed, but on a bed day-dreaming you are in the material world?
(7) Are you day-dreaming of being in the material world while doing your service in krsna-lila? For example, dancing with Krsna?
(8) Are you sleep-walking in Goloka, while dreaming you are in material world?
(9) Does your dreaming of being in the material world affect your service in krsna-lila?
(10) Are all the souls dreaming of being in the material world gathered together in one particular area of Goloka, or are they spread all over Goloka?
(11) Is it possible that the material dreaming souls could influence the pure devotees in Goloka to also day-dream or sleep-dream of material life?
(12) Is it possible that the devotees in Goloka not materially dreaming might accidentally wake up the materially dreaming souls in Goloka?
(13) If a materially dreaming soul wakes up, accidentally or otherwise, then how does that sudden waking up in Goloka affect his activities in the material world? For example, if a soul is dreaming he is driving a car in the material world and wakes up from his dream in Goloka, then does the car crash, or whatever?
(14) How is it possible to experience material birth while in Goloka?
(15) How is it possible to experience material activities while in Goloka?
(16) How is it possible to experience material emotion while in Goloka?
(17) How is it possible to experience the material time factor while in Goloka?
(18) Do you wake up from your material dream in Goloka before or after you die in the material dream?
(19) The Mayavadi conception is "brahma-satyam, jagat mithya", Brahman is Truth, this material world is false. Your Goloka-dreamvadi concept is "Goloka-dreaming, jagat-mithya", or Goloka-dreaming, material world I'm not really here just dreaming, kindly explain how it is different from basic mayavadi philosophy.
So according to this subconscious fall-vada, we do pastimes here just as they go on in the spiritual world. There is no difference between the material and spiritual world. All the activities here are orchestrated from above. The script is written in Vaikuntha and we execute it. The first and second world war with all its horrors gas-chambers atom-bombs was lila. The Stalin amsa killing 30 million other amsas was lila among the amsas of the nitya siddhas. The Mao amsa killing 40 million other amsas was lila. The 42 million abortions every year worldwide is the lila of Vaikuntha. The 1 million suicides worldwide every year is the lila of some or 1 million Vaikuntha residents. The up till now registered more than 120 million abductions by the aliens is the lila of Vaikuntha, it could also be staged in Vaikuntha.
De salientar que almas caidas no pueden expandirse. Solo almas perfectas pueden expandirse.
JAJAJAJAJA
5 - De Krsna (Samvit Sakti) se manifiesta Balarama (Sandhini Sakti-potencia de la existencia).
De Balarama los asociados de Krsna (Radha-Hladini Sakti) en todas las Rasas y todo en Goloka (tierra, vacas, bosques, etc) se manifiestan.
De Balarama se manifiesta Sankarsana.
De Sankarsana se manifiestan todos los habitantes de Vaikuntha.
De Sankarsana se manifiesta Maha Visnu, el abrigo del Jiva Tattva.
Este es el Siddhanta Gaudiya Vaisnava que Prabhupada explica. (CC Adi 5)
Claro que vinimos de Krsna. EN ESTA ORDEN.
6 - "Ya sea despierto o dormido, el devoto del Señor nunca puede dejar de pensar en el nombre, la forma, las cualidades y los pasatiempos de Krsna. Así pues, el devoto de Krsna puede vencer tanto el sueño como la ignorancia, por el simple hecho de pensar en Krsna constantemente. Eso se denomina conciencia de Krsna o samadhi." BG 1.24
7 - Bilvamangala Thakura was first spiritually initiated for impersonal realization of the Absolute Truth, but later on, by his association with Krsna in Vrndavana, he became an experienced devotee. The same thing happened to Sukadeva Gosvami, who also reformed himself by the grace of the Lord and took to the path of devotional service, giving up the way of impersonal realization.
Sukadeva Gosvami and Bilvamangala T?hakura, who gave up the impersonal conception of the Absolute Truth to take to devotional service, are the best examples of devotees situated in the neutral state. According to some authorities, this condition cannot be accepted as one of the transcendental humors, or rasas, but Srila Rupa Gosvami says that even if one does not accept it as a transcendental humor, one must still accept it as the beginning position of devotional service. However, if one is not further raised to the platform of actual service to the Lord, he is not considered to be on the platform of transcendental mellow. In this connection, in the Eleventh Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, Lord Kr?s?n?a personally instructs Uddhava like this: "The state of being established in My personal form is called santa-rasa, and without being situated in this position, no one can advance to actual pure devotional service." In other words, no one can be situated in the personal feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead without being situated at least in santa-rasa. (Nectar of Devotion)
A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)
The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)
The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)
A pure devotee of the Lord is so purified in his heart that he cannot leave the shelter of Lord Krsna in any circumstances. There is no self-interest in such service. (Bhag. 2.8.6, purp.)
Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (670218CC.SF)
Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (731213mw.la)
They can fall down by their own free will, their intrinsic spiritual quality, not dependent on the action of an external force as maya. Their free will is exhibited not as a choice between spirit and matter, but to serve or not to serve.
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/11-11/editorials7929.htm
http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/08-10/editorials6490.htm
The actual truth from the spiritual world as perceived from there, is different from the perspective here in Mahamaya; this material world. Here in conditioned life we understand the Bhagavat theory of emanations and how the One became many for his own enjoyment and how he creates unlimited souls simply by glancing over Prakriti Devi and how these souls emanating from the Viraja are incomplete souls being sorely deficient in certain required potencies necessary for performing Vishnu bhakti in Vaikuntha. After the full cycle of evolution, the living entity attains the human form of life and possibly a chance to attain God consciousness
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-13/editorials10016.htm
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-12/editorials8106.htm
"So according to this subconscious fall-vada, we do pastimes here just as they go on in the spiritual world. There is no difference between the material and spiritual world. All the activities here are orchestrated from above. The script is written in Vaikuntha and we execute it. The first and second world war with all its horrors gas-chambers atom-bombs was lila. The Stalin amsa killing 30 million other amsas was lila among the amsas of the nitya siddhas. The Mao amsa killing 40 million other amsas was lila. The 42 million abortions every year worldwide is the lila of Vaikuntha. The 1 million suicides worldwide every year is the lila of some or 1 million Vaikuntha residents. The up till now registered more than 120 million abductions by the aliens is the lila of Vaikuntha, it could also be staged in Vaikuntha.
Interestingly, the following is from the concluding paragraph of the last purport of the Bhagavad-gita, i.e., 18.78:
Srila Prabhupada: “The living entity in his original position is pure spirit. He is just like an atomic particle of the Supreme Spirit. Thus Lord Krsna may be compared to the sun, and the living entities to sunshine. Because the living entities are the marginal energy of Krsna, they have a tendency to be in contact either with the material energy or with the spiritual energy. In other words, the living entity is situated between the two energies of the Lord, and because he belongs to the superior energy of the Lord, he has a particle of independence. By proper use of that independence he comes under the direct order of Krsna. Thus he attains his normal condition in the pleasure-giving potency.”
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials6027.htm
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-10/editorials5617.htm
[PERGUNTAS]http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-10/editorials5936.htm
Y por lo tanto hay que tener en cuenta que cuando se debate este tema de la Jiva existen tres corrientes:
1 - La Jiva nunca estubo con Krsna y el Karma no tiene comienzo.
2 - La Jiva estubo con Krsna y cayo de una relacion con Él y simultaneamente esta aqui y alla.
3 - La Jiva eligio entre Maya y Krsna despues de despertar del Susupti en Maha Visnu.
Hay devoto(a)s que siguen una corriente. Otros otra y otros otra.
Esto tiene que quedar claro. Creo que estamos de acuerdo que existen por lo menos estas tres corrientes. Si? No?
Two Types of Jivas
Question: Jiva Gosvami writes about two types of beginningless tatastha jivas, tad evam jivakhyas . . . As to the liberated “tatastha jivas,” it seems more correct to refer to such parsadas as being constituted of svarupa sakti and that only sadhana siddhas are constituted of tatastha sakti. Is Jiva Gosvami really saying that other than the parsadas like Nanda, Yasoda, etc. constituted of svarupa-sakti, there are also other tathasta-sakti nitya siddhas? Thakura Bhaktivinode does say this, but I did not think Jiva Gosvami did.
Answer by Satyanarayana: Yes, Sri Jiva Gosvami does say that there are nitya siddha jivas, other than those who are expansions of svarupa sakti. As an example he writes garudadikam – Garuda etc. I
I think Visvaksena is another example. There must be many more.
Cuando la Jiva alcanza vastu-siddhi y se transfiere al aprakata-lila, la cualidad esencial del ser tatastha, es decir, que está entre las dos energías ya no esta alli en el sentido de que siempre elije Krsna, y la Jiva, aunque se originó en tatastha, ya no puede ser considerado ontológicamente tatastha, ya que ahora se ha convertido permanentemente situada en y obtiene las cualidades de svarupa-sakti. Por supuesto que todavía se considera tatastha a causa de su origen, aunque no posea la calidad de tatastha.
Sri Balarama Serves All Mellows
Lord Balarama is constantly serving Lord Krsna in every respect. In all of Krsna’s incarnations and pastimes Lord Balarama is always present serving Krsna in different forms and manifestations. In Rama-lila, Balarama serves Lord Ramacandra as His younger brother, Laxman. In Kali-yuga, Sri Balarama spreads the Sankirtan movement of Sri Caitanya as Lord Nityananda. Lord Balarama serves Sri Krsna in all the five rasas (mellows), from santa to madhurya rasa.
In santa rasa Lord Balarama fulfils Sri Krsna’s desires for blissful transcendental pastimes by expanding Himself as the holy dhama of Vraja Mandala. All of Krsna’s personal Possessions such as Krsna’s crown, bed, clothes, throne, ornaments; and any other object that Krsna utilises are all expansions of Lord Balarama.
As Krsna’s cowherd friend and elder brother in sakhya rasa, Sri Balarama sometimes accepts service from Krsna after defeating Him in a wrestling match. But generally, Balarama ‘s fraternal feelings are mixed with servitude (dasya rasa) and paren¬tal affection (vatsalya rasa). In the mood or vatsalya rasa, Sri Balarama sometimes protects Krsna as a parent or chastises Him as the elder brother. “Once Lord Balarama told Subala, ‘My dear friend, please inform Krsna not to go to Kaliya lake today. Today is Krsna’s birthday, and so I wish to go along with Mother Yasoda to bathe Him. Tell Krsna He should not leave the house today! This shows how Balarama, Krsna’s elder brother, took care of Krsna with parental love, within the scope of fraternal affection” (NOD Chap. 42).
“The splendor of Lord Balarama’s transcendental form eclipses many millions of glistening rising moons, and the slightest scent of His boundless strength is sufficient to destroy many armies of demons. Although He knows the supernatural power of His younger brother, Krsna, still, out of love for Him, Balarama never leaves Krsna alone in the forest even for a moment. I offer my prayers to Lord Balarama, the enemy of Dhenukasura” (WS)
Lord Balarama can expand Himself into unlimited and different forms. In order to serve Sri Krsnaa’s intimate conjugal pastimes in madhurya rasa, Lord Balarama expands Himself as Ananga Manjari. Ananga manjari wears beautiful clothing the colour of a blue lotus flower and She is especially dear to Lalita and Visakha.
lo que tengo entendido es que en el mundo espiritual no hay residentes de segunda clase.
todos están impregnados por PREMA,amor puro por dios en diferentes rasas o melosidades transcendentales.
son todos uttamas,devotos de primera clase.
el nivel uttama es el único que hay en vaikuntha y goloka,y en ese nivel ninguna jiva siente apatía por el señor supremo.
en el nivel de PREMA nadie puede elegir olvidar a la suprema personalidad de dios.
goloka es el planeta superior en el mundo espiritual.
en goloka lo más sublime es relacionarse con sri krishna en el humor de las gopis.
mas eso no significa que los demás rasas son de calidad inferior o que pueden estar
sujetos a desaparecer temporalmente por la influencia de MAHA MAYA,
que es la única energía que puede cubrir la consciencia naturalmente pura de la entidad viviente...
