Jiva Fall Alcançar Bhava

Uttamasloka Dasa Unbelievable how devotees misunderstand things so much. Shocking really. They are definitely not studying the books very deeply. That's the first problem.

Brihad-bhagavatamrita is not an explanation of how we return to Godhead. We are not going to go through all of the realms like Gopa Kumara. That story was instructive not literal. Kadamba Kanana Swami made no mention of taking birth in bhauma-lila which is where we 'grow up' and get our full self-conception as one of the Vraja-vasis. THAT is how it works.

Now, we do meet Krsna and everyone before we take birth in bhauma-lila, ie: at the stage of prema after bhava, and Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura describes that in Madhurya-kadambini. There is no mention of Krsna saying "Hey nice to see you return". It is described as a first meeting. And here is Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's description of the necessity of taking birth in bhauma-lila, from Raga-vartma-candrika:

One may ask, “Why don’t you say that when the sādhaka attains the stage of prema and leaves his body, he will take a gopīka body in the spiritual world without taking birth from the womb of a gopīka, after which he manifests sneha and so on, there in that body through the association of the eternally perfect gopīs?”

The answer here is: “No, that will not happen, because then one cannot get a harmonious acquaintance according to the human-like pastimes there, like: ‘Whose daughter is this sakhī? Whose wife is she? Whose daughter-in-law is she?’

‘Alright then’ one may say, ‘Then what is the harm in taking birth in the aprakaṭa-līlā?’ Then the answer is no, that also cannot be. Sādhakas or materially conditioned souls cannot enter into the transcendental manifestation named Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma. Only perfected souls can enter it. Even through one’s own sādhana the moods of sneha and so on are not easily attained.

Therefore, those devotees for whom yoga māyā, for the sake of perfecting their moods like sneha and so on, arranges that prema is manifest in them after they take birth in Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, and before they attain Kṛṣṇa’s bodily association, they are taken to Kṛṣṇa’s materially manifest pastimes in Vṛndāvana.

Because practicing devotees, karmis, and perfected devotees can all be seen to enter into the materially manifest Śrī Vṛndāvana Dhāma, it is experienced as both sādhaka bhūmi and siddha bhūmi.

Then if you say, “Where will those most eager sādhakas stay after they attain prema and until they attain a gopīka body, after leaving their material bodies?”

Then I answer: “After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.

He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.

Therefore, O greatly eager anurāgi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7

Tarun Govinda Das Wonderful Uttamasloka Dasa!!!

Here is the first part of text 7:

atha rāgānugā bhakti majjanasyānartha nivṛtti niṣṭhā-rucyāsaktyantaraṁ prema-bhūmikārūḍhasya sākṣāt svābhīṣṭa-prāpti-prakāraḥ pradarśyate. yathojjvala nīlamaṇau "tad bhāva baddha rāgā ye janās te sādhane ratāḥ. tad yogyam anurāgaughaṁ prāpyotkaṇṭhānusārataḥ. tā ekaśo'thavā dvi-trāḥ kāle kāle vraje'bhavan" iti. anurāgaughaṁ rāgānugā bhajanaut¬kaṇṭhyaṁ natvanurāga sthāyinaṁ sādhaka-dehe'nurāgotpattyasambhavāt. vraje'bhavann iti avatāra samaye nitya priyā¬dya yathā āvirbhavanti tathaiva gopikā-garbhe sādhana-siddha api āvirbhavanti. tataś ca nitya-siddhādi gopīnāṁ mahā-bhāva-vatīnāṁ saṅga mahimnā darśana śravaṇa kīrtanādibhiḥ sneha māna praṇaya rāgānurāga mahā-bhāvā api tatra gopikā-dehe utpadyante. pūrva janmani sādhaka-dehe teṣām utpattyasambhavāt. ataeva vraje kṛṣṇa preyasīnām asādharaṇāni lakṣa¬ṇāni. yad uktam - "gopīnāṁ paramānanda āsīd govinda darśane. kṣaṇaṁ yuga-śatam iva yāsāṁ yena vinā bhaved" iti. "truṭir yugāyate tvām apaśyatam" ityādi ca. kṣaṇasya yuga śatāyamā¬natvaṁ mahā-bhāva lakṣaṇam.

Now it will be described how the rāgānugīya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivṛtti (cessation of bad habits), niṣṭhā (fixation), ruci (taste), and āsakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity. In the Ujjvala Nīlamaṇi it is said that 'those who are specially attracted to the ecstasy of the Vraja¬vāsīs and thus perform rāgānugā bhajana will attain that abundance of eagerness that is fit for performing rāgānu¬gā bhajana and will take birth in Vraja in groups of one, two or three in their own time, according to their eagerness.' Here the word anurāgaugha means 'that eagerness that makes one qualified for doing rāgānugā bhajana'. The anurāga mentioned here does not refer to the sthāyi bhāva (permanent mood) of that name, because the sthāyi bhāva named anurāga cannot be attained within a material body. The words 'having taken birth in Vraja' means the sādhana siddhas take birth from the womb of a gopikā, just as Kṛṣṇa's eternally beloved gopīs appear with Him when He descends to earth (prakaṭa līlā). After that, gradually sneha, māna, praṇaya, rāga, anurāga and mahābhāva will become manifest in the gopikā-body of that sādhaka on the strength of associating with the gopīs that are endowed with mahā-bhāva and by hearing and chanting and seeing the greatness of Kṛṣṇa's eternally liberated gopīs. These feelings could not possibly have arisen in the material body of the sādhaka, in his previous birth. In this way the extraordinary characteristics of Śrī Kṛṣṇa's beloveds in Vraja has been shown. In Śrīmad Bhāgavata it is said that the gopīs attained the pinnacle of transcendental bliss by seeing Govinda. Without Him, they experienced a moment to last like a hundred ages. Their statement (in Śrīmad Bhāgavata 10.31.¬15) 'Without seeing You, we consider a second to last like an age', is a symptom of mahābhāva.

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"Now it will be described how the rāgānugīya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivṛtti (cessation of bad habits), niṣṭhā (fixation), ruci (taste), and āsakti (attachment to the beloved deity) upto the stage of prema (love of God) and the direct attainment of his beloved deity. "

Here we have the evidence that raganuga-bhakti-sadhana starts NOT at RUCI...grin emoticon

Gosto · Responder · 5 · 18/7 às 12:45

Tarun Govinda Das Wow....I just read "Sri Bhagavat Sandarbha" by Srila Jiva Goswami...Anuccheda 63..."No one falls from Vaikuntha"

Awesomeness

Gosto · Responder · 3 · 19/7 às 9:48

Uttamasloka Dasa I'm reading that book now. Almost finished, then on to Krsna-sandarbha. grin emoticon

Gosto · 3 · 19/7 às 16:50

Vishwambhar Priya Hey Tarun, who did the translation? Thanks

Gosto · 19/7 às 17:22

Tarun Govinda Das Satyanarayana das Babaji...in the commentary to this Anuccheda he expertly refutes the fall-theory on over 30 pages...brilliant.

Gosto · 1 · 19/7 às 17:39

Tarun Govinda Das I think Bhanu Swami has an edition out too...

Gosto · 19/7 às 17:41

Uttamasloka Dasa Wow! 30 pages just for the fall refutation? I'd like to read that. I'm writing an updated and more comprehensive version of what I wrote in my book. You can read parts of it here in this thread started by Gaura Gopala. Just skip the posts and read mine. grin emoticon

https://www.facebook.com/groups/148383921951519/770059336450638/?notif_t=group_comment_follow

Gosto · 19/7 às 17:56 · Editado

Vishwambhar Priya I have Satyanaratana das babajis at home! Thanks Tarun

Gosto · 19/7 às 17:58

Tarun Govinda Das Uttamasloka Dasa: u got a message grin emoticon

Gosto · 1 · 19/7 às 18:01

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

Escreve uma resposta...

Tarun Govinda Das Just an Impression...

Foto de Tarun Govinda Das.

Gosto · Responder · Ontem às 5:51

Niscala Devi Dasi The entree to whet your appetite! smile emoticon

Gosto · Responder · 1 · Ontem às 6:10

Tarun Govinda Das Bhagavat Sandarbha

Anuccheda (63)

No One Falls From Vaikuṇṭha

(3) No one falls down from that abode (tato’skhalanam).

Śrī Kapiladeva says:

atho vibhūtiṁ mama māyayācitām

aiśvaryam aṣṭāṅgam anupravṛttam

śriyaṁ bhāgavatīṁ vāspṛhayanti bhadrāṁ

parasya me te’śnuvate tu loke

Thereafter, they do not hanker after any opulence stored for them by My māyā, nor for the eight ensuing yogic paranormal powers, nor even for the transcendental glory of God, and yet these benign gifts become effortlessly available to them in My supreme abode. (SB 3.25.37)

“Thereafter” (atho) means, “after the removal of ignorance.” “By My māyā” (mama māyayā) means, “by My mercy upon the devotee.”

“Stored” (ācitām) means, made manifest or available for the sake of those devotees. “Opulence” (vibhūti) refers to paraphernalia appropriate for enjoyment, and aiśvarya, to the eight yogic paranormal powers (aṣṭāṅgaiśvaryam), such as aṇimā (atomization).

These powers systematically ensue” (anupravṛttam), i.e., it is their very nature to be made available (as a consequence of pure devotion). The devotees do not desire any of the above, nor even “the transcendental glory of God” (bhāgavatīṁ śriyaṁ), which here refers to the majesty known as sārṣṭi, or in other words, those divine opulences that are particular to the Lord Himself.

The reason why they don’t desire any such opulence is that they yearn only to expand God’s own bliss through abandonment to all-consuming devotional love and service. Even though they have no desire for any of the above-stated gifts, they certainly enjoy (aśnuvate) them, meaning that they become fully available to them, in My supreme abode (loke) known as Vaikuṇṭha.

This shows the Lord’s special affection for His devotees, which is also exemplified in the benediction given to Sudāmā, the florist in Mathurā:

Sudāmā entreated the Lord that he may be blessed with unflinching devotion for Him, the Soul of all existence, with heart-felt friendship toward His devotees, and with the broadest and highest compassion for all living beings.

The Lord not only granted Sudāmā all these, but also awarded him ever-increasing prosperity for his family (as well as strength, longevity, fame and beauty).

(SB 10.41.51-52)

Kapiladeva’s verse also shows the devotees’ disinterest in these opulences.

The phrases, “after the removal of ignorance” (atho), and, “stored for them by My mercy” (mama māyayācitam), indicate that such opulences are in no way detrimental to them. Furthermore, by saying, “stored by My māyā” (māyayācitām), Kapiladeva indicates that all opulences, including those of the highest realms like Brahma-loka, are fully available to such devotees, as experiential possibilities, yet they make no use of them, considering them completely devoid of significance or substantiality and thus unsuitable for their use.

Śruti also states: “Just as the enjoyment earned by karma in this world perishes in due course, so does heavenly pleasure, attained by pious deeds.” (ChU 8.1.6)

And thereafter, “Those who leave their bodies after continuous recognition of the Lord, and of the realities truly worthy of desire can freely travel in all the worlds.”

Here a doubt is raised:

If Vaikuṇṭha is just another planet (loka), undistinguished from other planets (like Siddha-loka, and so on), then sooner or later the experiencer’s enjoyment (of this realm) will come to an end.

In response, the following verse is spoken:

na karhicin mat-parāḥ śānta-rūpe

naṅkṣyanti no me’nimiṣo leḍhi hetiḥ

yeṣām ahaṁ priya ātmā sutaś ca

sakhā guruḥ suhṛdo daivam iṣṭam

In that abode of unalterable peace, are found only those who know themselves and feel themselves to belong to Me entirely. They will never meet with destruction; My unblinking wheel never devours those for whom I am the total Beloved, their very Self, son, friend, preceptor, relative, benefactor and worshipable Lord. (SB 3.25.38)

“Of unalterable peace” (śānta-rūpe) refers to the supreme abode, Vaikuṇṭha (mentioned in the previous verse), which is peaceful by nature, meaning that it is free from all change or alteration that could disrupt the continuity of peace. All those who reside there know themselves and feel themselves to belong to Me entirely (mat-parāḥ). They are never destroyed (no naṅkṣyanti), which means they are never bereft of the (aforementioned) experiential possibilities. “My unblinking wheel” (animiṣo me hetiḥ), i.e., My discus in the form of time, does not devour them (no leḍhi).

As stated in the Śruti, “He does not return” (ChU 8.15.1).

The Gītopaniṣad also declares:

O Arjuna, all planets up to the highest planet, Brahma-loka, are places of return, but one who attains to My abode never takes birth again. (Gītā 8.16)

In commenting on the name Parāyaṇa in his Sahasra-nāma-bhāṣya (75), Śaṅkarācārya writes, “That abode is supreme (param), or in other words, most excellent, from which there is no going (ayana), meaning, wherein there is no fear of return (punar-āvṛtti-śaṅkā-rahitam), and so it is called Parāyana”.

If the term appears in the masculine gender, then it should be taken as a bahuvrīhi compound, i.e., as an epithet of the Lord (rendering this sense, “the Lord, whose supreme abode is free from return”).

Freedom from the fear of fall or destruction is not the full extent of the devotees’ glories.

Lord Kapila elucidates further in the second half of the verse: “those for whom I am the total Beloved, their very Self, son, friend, preceptor, relative, benefactor and worshipable Lord.” This means that for such devotees there is no Entity other than Me (the Lord), for whom their love exists.

Alternatively, the statement can be taken as a reference to Goloka (instead of Vaikuṇṭha), because only there do the gopas, endowed with the full range of such attitudes, eternally reside.

Then again, the last two lines of the verse can be taken as a reply to the question, “What kind of people attain that abode after being freed from ignorance?” The idea is this: Some people, like the sages described in the Uttara-khaṇḍa of the Padma Purāṇa, desire Me as their beloved husband (priyaḥ), while others, like the four Kumāras, consider Me as “their very Self” (ātmā), i.e., directly as Brahman; yet others relate to Me in the other ways mentioned; only such persons (who know themselves as belonging to Me entirely, through any of these dispositions) can attain Vaikuṇṭha.

The word suhṛdaḥ, “bosom friend,” is in the plural, because such friends are of various kinds.

Śrī Nārada speaks in a similar vein in the Fourth Canto:

Those established in unalterable peace, who are equanimous, pure and who please all other living beings, effortlessly go to that abode from which no one falls down (acyuta-padam), for they keep friendship with the dear devotees of the infallible Lord. (SB 4.12.37)

- Srila Jiva Goswami (translation by Srila Satyanarayana das Babaji)

Gosto · Responder · 3 · 23 h · Editado

Niscala Devi Dasi Which parts of the above were written by Jiva Goswami and which by Satya Narayan Babaji?

Gosto · 1 · 23 h

Tarun Govinda Das Only Jiva Goswami here

Gosto · 1 · 23 h

Tarun Govinda Das Thank you, Malatimanjari Dasi

Gosto · 2 · 23 h

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

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Tarun Govinda Das From the commentary of Srila Satyanarayana das Babaji:

If we accept that the jīva falls from Vaikuṇṭha, we must admit that it is a material event from beginning to end. Although a material act cannot occur in Vaikuṇṭha, let us assume for the sake of argument that it could somehow happen.

Falling can have either a material or a spiritual cause. Below are six conditions often thought to precede a falldown.

1. The jīva wishes to come to the material world, inspired by his free will

The devotee’s very nature, svarūpa, is to be in undiminishing, unbreakable, all-consuming love for God, to long only for His bliss through naturally arising service in devotion. Such devotees do not desire material or spiritual opulence without devotional service, because, in fact, they desire nothing independent of the Lord. Their will, too, being of the same transcendental nature, exists simply for the pleasure of the Lord. This is the import of Lord Kapila’s statement, quoted above, “They do not hanker even for the transcendental glory of God” (śrīyaṁ bhāgavatiṁ vāspṛhayanti). Furthermore, spiritual opulences, and for that matter, even material opulences, are fully available to them as experiential possibilities at every moment, by the mercy of the Lord (mama māyayācitām, SB 3.25.37). So why yearn for that which eternally sits in the palm of one’s own hand?

Elsewhere, Lord Kapila states:

Without being assured of My service, a pure devotee does not accept any kind of liberation, whether it be residence on the same planet with Me (sālokya), opulence equal to Mine (sārṣṭi), proximity to Me (sāmīpya), endowment with a form identical to Mine (sārūpya) or becoming one with Me (ekatvam), even though I may offer these to him. (SB 3.29.13)

Vinā mat-sevanam here means, “without My service.” This means that a devotee would accept one or more of these different types of liberation only if they prove conducive for his service to the Lord, but not for independent enjoyment. A devotee certainly has no desire to come to the material world. Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī says that devotees have no interest in material enjoyment because they consider it completely devoid of significance or substantiality-tasyātitucchatvena. Why should a discerning person abandon a touchstone to acquire a piece of glass (kāca-maṇi)? On the contrary, a devotee never conceives, even for a moment, of leaving Kṛṣṇa’s lotus feet. Everything else is simply of no interest. King Parīkṣit confirms this while speaking to his spiritual teacher:

A person whose heart has been washed clean never abandons Kṛṣṇa’s lotus feet. Like a traveler who has arrived home, he is relieved of all distress. (SB 2.8.6)

In Section 7 of Prīti-sandarbha, Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī writes that one should not think that Jaya and Vijaya chose to become enemies of the Lord in order to quickly relieve themselves from the curse of the Kumāras-na ca tayor eva svāparādha-bhoga-śīghra-nistārārtham api tādṛśīcchā jāteti vācyam. Pure devotees of the Lord do not accept even sālokya-mukti if it is bereft of bhakti, and are prepared even to go to hell for the sake of bhakti. Indeed, Jaya and Vijaya’s only request was, “But we pray that Your compassion be invoked on seeing our penitence, so that as we descend ever downward, we will not be overtaken by the bewilderment that causes forgetfulness of the Lord” (SB 3.15.36).

Thus, for a Vaikuṇṭha resident to give up the Lord’s service and voluntarily come to the material world is highly illogical and against scriptural conclusions.

The Lord has endowed the devotees with freedom of will for the purpose of serving Him, not for leaving Him. Lord Kṛṣṇa says that everyone follows his own nature, and that it is very difficult to give it up (Gītā 3.33). This is also commonly experienced by everyone. So, if abandoning one’s acquired, and hence spurious, material nature is so difficult, how much more difficult would it be for a resident of Vaikuṇṭha to give up his eternal, and hence true, nature-the nature to love and serve the all-conscious, all-blissful, all-encompassing Being to whom we eternally belong! Just as fire cannot exist without heat, a pure devotee in Vaikuṇṭha cannot exist without service.

Freedom of will does not mean acting frivolously, nor does it imply having the power to manifest whatever it is one may desire (i.e., omnipotence). We have freedom of will, but even if we desire to do so, we haven’t the power or capacity to stand on our own shoulders. Moreover, the mere fact that drinking poison is within the range of decision making possibilities doesn’t mean that a person would likely choose to do so. How then would a Vaikuṇṭha resident choose something that is altogether outside their range of experience and interest?

Gosto · Responder · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das 2. He commits sin

There is no possibility of committing sin in the spiritual world. Sin and piety exist only in the material world, both being products of the guṇas of nature. A devotee in the spiritual world is situated in his eternal inherent nature (svarūpa), free from material covering or ignorance-muktir hitvānyathā-rūpam svarūpeṇa vyavasthitiḥ (SB 2.10.6). Mukti means to give up the subtle and gross bodies and become situated in one’s original nature. In Bhagavad Gītā, Lord Kṛṣṇa explains that all sins are burned in the fire of transcendental knowledge:

Even if you are the most sinful of all sinners, you will be able to cross over the ocean of miseries in the boat of knowledge. As a blazing fire reduces fuel to ashes, O Arjuna, so does the fire of knowledge reduce all karma to ashes. (Gītā 4.36-37)

Some rare souls who are completely devoted to Lord Vāsudeva totally destroy all their sins by their exclusive devotion, just as the sun immediately dissipates fog with its rays. (SB 6.1.15)

This point was also described in Section 47 of Tattva-sandarbha, in regard to the explanation of Vyāsa’s trance:

By hearing this Śrīmad Bhāgavatam, one is blessed with devotion to Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Person. This devotion puts an end to all mourning, bewilderment and fear. (SB 1.7.7)

Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary on this verse explains that even the most subtle impressions of sin are destroyed. Lord Kṛṣṇa Himself instructed Śrī Uddhava in this same principle:

Uddhava, just as a blazing fire turns firewood into ashes, devotion to Me completely burns My devotees’ sins to ashes. (SB 11.14.19)

The word kṛtsnaśaḥ (completely) is important. It means that ignorance, which is the root cause of sin, is also completely destroyed along with the external effects of sin.

3. He is cursed by a devotee or the Lord

There is no possibility that a devotee would curse another devotee in Vaikuṇṭha.

A devotee never desires to harm anyone, what to speak of another devotee.

Prahlāda Mahārāja says that a devotee is endowed with all auspicious qualities:

All the gods come and invest their qualities in one who is devoted to the Supreme Lord without independent interest or desire. On the other hand, where are the great virtues of a person not devoted to Lord Hari, whose desires lead him to wander about in the superficial and impermanent realm? (SB 5.18.12)

A devotee has no desire to harm even those who consider him their enemy. Prahlāda Mahārāja is the ideal example. He remained concerned about his father’s welfare even though the latter tortured and tried to kill him in various ways. Devotees are peaceful, tolerant, merciful and always disposed toward everyone’s welfare. Lord Kapila confirms this:

Those established in Truth are tolerant, merciful and friendly to all beings; their enemy is never even born, and so they are situated in unalterable peace. Such persons are jewels amongst the virtuous. (SB 3.25.21)

There are some stories in the Purāṇas wherein devotees curse each other, but this is just to set the scene for the unfolding of the līlā, and no truly inimical feelings are present. Even

when devotees come to the material world as a result of a curse, they are not placed under the influence of the guṇas of material nature. They remain for the prescribed duration and assist in the Lord’s bhauma-līlā, or manifest pastimes on earth. Jaya and Vijaya’s descent to the earth was not the result of the curse of the Kumāras; it was impelled by the will of the Lord:

The Lord said to His attendants, Jaya and Vijaya, “Go, but fear not. May peace be with you. Though I am capable of stopping the brāhmaṇas’ curse, I do not wish to do so. In fact, I approve of it.” (SB 3.16.29)

Just as those who visit a prison do not become prisoners, so those devotees who are so-called “cursed” to come to this material world to assist the Lord in His līlā are not bound by the guṇas of nature. The associates of the Lord are almost as powerful as the Lord Himself, as stated in the Bhāgavatam:

They saw Him with eyes resembling a pair of full-blown autumn lotuses, and surrounded by His sixteen associates, who appeared exactly like Him, only without the mark of Śrīvatsa and the Kaustubha jewel. (SB 6.9.29)

The word ātma-tulyaiḥ in this verse means that the Lord’s associates are just like His very own Self. This means that they too are merciful, just like Him, and thus they never desire to harm anyone.

Gosto · Responder · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das 4. He offends a devotee or he offends the Lord

A perfected devotee never commits an offense. Offenses are committed due to ignorance, resulting from forgetfulness of the Lord. Offense (aparādha) means an act that causes displeasure. A siddha devotee never forgets the Lord, and he never desires to displease the Lord; he thus never commits offenses, knowingly or unknowingly. He is guided by the internal potency of the Lord, just as a conditioned soul is always under the influence of the external energy. The internal energy is always favorable to the Lord.

In Mādhurya-kādambinī, Śrīla Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura has made a minute analysis of offenses while describing a devotee’s progress from śraddhā to prema. In the third chapter, he explains that when a devotee has attained prema, he is completely free from all types of offenses, and that when he attains the lotus feet of the Lord there is not even the slightest possibility of committing an offense.

For the enlightenment of those who think Mahārāja Citraketu offended Lord Śiva after having attained the darśana of Lord Śaṅkarṣaṇa, Viśvanātha writes that the king did not really offend Lord Śiva. He gives more details on this in his commentary on the 17th chapter of the Sixth Canto. The effect of an offense is that one’s affection for the Lord

diminishes, but we see that even after King Citraketu took birth as Vṛtrāsura, he retained his love for the Lord.

According to Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī (BRS 1.3.54), an offense committed to the Lord’s dear devotee can cause one’s bhāva, or permanent devotional disposition of being, to be lost altogether, transmuted into a mere semblance (bhāvābhāsa), or downgraded to a lower bhāva, depending on the gravity of the offense. But none of these things can happen once a devotee has attained the platform of prema. The conclusion is that a perfected devotee who has attained the Lord is free from all offenses. Readers can also refer to Prīti-sandarbha, Section 7, for more details.

5. The Lord decides to make him fall, as He is free to do as He likes.

The last possibility is that the Lord Himself sends a devotee away. This is also impossible, except in cases where He deliberately sends one of His eternal companions to the material world for the purpose of assisting Him in His pastimes.

The Lord positively told Durvāsā Muni:

O brāhmaṇa, I am completely under the control of My devotees, as if I had no independence at all. My heart has been fully captivated by My virtuous devotees, for I am their only beloved.

O brāhmaṇa, I have no desire to delight in My own Being, nor to enjoy My eternal opulences, separate from my virtuous devotees, to whom I am the supreme goal of life.

How could I possibly abandon those sādhus who, for My sake, have given up home, wife, children, family members, wealth, life and all hopes for happiness in this world and the next?

I am conquered by the virtuous whose hearts are tied to Me while showing equanimity to all beings, just as a virtuous wife wins over her pious husband’s love.

My devotees are completely satisfied by their service to Me. They have not even the slightest interest in the four kinds of liberation (sālokya, sārupya, sāmīpya and sārṣṭī) automatically available to them as a mere side-effect of their service. How could they yearn for anything that is destroyed by time?

I am the heart of the devotees and they are Mine. They know nothing other than Me, and I, nothing other than them. (SB 9.4.63-68)

These verses lucidly describe the Lord’s intense affection for His devotees. They were spoken with respect to Ambarīṣa Mahārāja, who was in the material world, so imagine how much more they must apply to devotees who are supremely perfect and have been eternally rendering service to the Supreme Lord in transcendental bodies, within the spiritual domain.

Kṛṣṇa assured Arjuna in similar fashion:

O son of Kunti! Such a devotee very quickly becomes righteous and attains eternal peace. Therefore, declare it loudly: My devotee will never perish. (Gītā 9.31)

This verse is spoken in reference to devotees in the material world who accidentally engage in abominable action, sudurācāra. Even they do not fall into the material conception of life. Inauspiciousness does not exist for devotees of the Lord (MB 13.149.131).

Gosto · Responder · 2 · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das Again, many thanks to Malatimanjari Dasi

Gosto · 22 h

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

Escreve uma resposta...

Tarun Govinda Das More from Srila Satyanarayana das Babaji:

In Bhagavad Gītā, Lord Kṛṣṇa says:

Not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire, such is My supreme abode, attaining which one never returns to this material world. (Gītā 15.6)

Despite the clarity of this evidence, one might claim that the above verses mean that those who reach Vaikuṇṭha from this material world never return, and that only those who have never been to this material world can fall down. In other words, those who achieve Vaikuṇṭha have experienced the miseries of the material world, but the nitya-siddhas are ignorant of these and are subject to falldown. The logic is that a person who has burned his tongue with hot milk is so careful that he even blows on buttermilk before drinking it.

This is an inconsistent argument. Before reaching Vaikuṇṭha, the devotee casts off his gross and subtle bodies. The experience of the material world remains in the subtle body, so the devotee does not carry it with him. In the material world we carry a stock of impressions in our subtle body, but how much of it do we remember? Indeed, we cannot recollect most of the things we have done even in this lifetime. How then is it to be expected that a liberated soul would remember the miseries of the material world? And why would he? What is the gain? Is the remembrance of past material miseries more captivating than the immediate and present ecstasy of service to the Lord? Whenever sustained joy fills a person’s life, memories of past pain or suffering fade into the background.

Moreover, even if the devotee, after attaining Vaikuṇṭha, wanted to recall his former material experience, he no longer has a subtle body in which all the impressions would be stored. Those memories are wiped clean without a trace. In Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.1.23), Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī writes that bhakti destroys all varieties of karma.

It has been shown logically that falling from Vaikuṇṭha is not possible under any circumstances. Nor is there any scriptural evidence to support such an event. However, there are many scriptural texts to the effect that it is impossible to fall down from the spiritual world, regardless of whether one has resided there eternally or has attained it after many lifetimes in the mundane world.

___

Awesome.

Gosto · Responder · 3 · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das Anuccheda 64

...wait for it....grin emoticon

Anuccheda (64)

Vaikuṇṭha Is Both Beyond Matter and a Place of No Falldown

In the following verse, Śrī Sūta Gosvāmī simultaneously describes both qualities of Vaikuṇṭha (discussed in the two previous sections): It is beyond the visible or manifest world and is a place from which no one falls down:

ātapatraṁ tu vaikuṇṭhaṁ

dvijā dhāmākuto-bhayam

O twice-born, the Lord’s umbrella is His spiritual abode, Vaikuṇṭha, where there is no fear. (SB 12.11.19)

From the context in which this verse is found (i.e., within a description of the Lord’s form within the cosmos), it is understood that the umbrella referred to in the verse belongs to His form as seen in the material world. (Though appearing in the material world, even that umbrella is Vaikuṇṭha, which is to say that it is beyond matter.) Dvijāḥ, “twice-born,” is an address (“O brāhmaṇas”).

- Srila Jiva Goswami

Gosto · Responder · 22 h

Mahavirya Das ''t's not now IF we left the spiritual world, it's WHEN.''

It is not even a question of ''when'' since time is irrelevant in the dimension of eternity. It is useless to try to figure these things out with the parameters imposed on us by material nature, The energies of the Lord are inconceivable, the jiva-shakti included.

Unless we accept this acintya aspect of the Lord and His energies we can go on debating about this subject for eternity without coming to a proper conclusion.

Everything is revealed in pure devotion. Those controversial concerns about jiva-shakti are part of jnana-misra bhakti and not very palatable or even useful for the attainment of pure bhakti.

Let's just understand that we are in a well and need to get out of it, or are in a dream and need to wake up or just forgot Krishna and need to chant His glories.

Foto de Mahavirya Das.

Gosto · Responder · 1 · 22 h

Ocultar 20 respostas

Tarun Govinda Das I follow Jiva Goswami. There never was a "fall down".

To me, it is very very clear.

Gosto · 22 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das "It is not IF we left the spiritual world, it's WHEN.''

Sorry, agree to disagree.

Gosto · 22 h

Mahavirya Das Vasudeva sarvam iti... You can only fall in Krishna anyway smile emoticon

Gosto · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das "Let's just understand that we are in a well and need to get out of it"

Agreed. grin emoticon

Gosto · 1 · 22 h

Tarun Govinda Das I am not in for a "debate". I just follow my Gurudeva and what the Goswamis wrote, like here Srila Jiva Goswami.

Dandavats.

Gosto · 3 · 22 h · Editado

Niscala Devi Dasi Jnana in relation to bhakti is helpful for bhakti Mahavirya Das. It is only jnana in relation to impersonal Brahman, that is rejected by the acaryas.

Gosto · 3 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das Jiva Goswamipad names his Anuccheda 63 " No one falls down from that abode (tato’skhalanam)" grin emoticon

"Here a doubt is raised:

If Vaikuṇṭha is just another planet (loka), undistinguished from other planets (like Siddha-loka, and so on), then sooner or later the experiencer’s enjoyment (of this realm) will come to an end.

In response, the following verse is spoken:

na karhicin mat-parāḥ śānta-rūpe

naṅkṣyanti no me’nimiṣo leḍhi hetiḥ

yeṣām ahaṁ priya ātmā sutaś ca

sakhā guruḥ suhṛdo daivam iṣṭam

In that abode of unalterable peace, are found only those who know themselves and feel themselves to belong to Me entirely. They will never meet with destruction; My unblinking wheel never devours those for whom I am the total Beloved, their very Self, son, friend, preceptor, relative, benefactor and worshipable Lord. (SB 3.25.38)

“Of unalterable peace” (śānta-rūpe) refers to the supreme abode, Vaikuṇṭha (mentioned in the previous verse), which is peaceful by nature, meaning that it is free from all change or alteration that could disrupt the continuity of peace. All those who reside there know themselves and feel themselves to belong to Me entirely (mat-parāḥ). They are never destroyed (no naṅkṣyanti), which means they are never bereft of the (aforementioned) experiential possibilities. “My unblinking wheel” (animiṣo me hetiḥ), i.e., My discus in the form of time, does not devour them (no leḍhi).

As stated in the Śruti, “He does not return” (ChU 8.15.1).

The Gītopaniṣad also declares:

O Arjuna, all planets up to the highest planet, Brahma-loka, are places of return, but one who attains to My abode never takes birth again. (Gītā 8.16)"

_________

Enough for me.

Jay Sri Radhe!

Gosto · 1 · 21 h · Editado

Niscala Devi Dasi The idea that residents of Vaikuntha can fall, and are thus not peaceful or fully protected, makes for less enthusiasm to reach that platform. Why should we strive for a platform that is so insecure?

Gosto · 4 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das Srila Jiva Goswami:

"In the following verse, Śrī Sūta Gosvāmī simultaneously describes both qualities of Vaikuṇṭha (discussed in the two previous sections): It is beyond the visible or manifest world and is a place from which no one falls down:

ātapatraṁ tu vaikuṇṭhaṁ

dvijā dhāmākuto-bhayam

O twice-born, the Lord’s umbrella is His spiritual abode, Vaikuṇṭha, where there is no fear. (SB 12.11.19) "

___

Clear as a bell.

grin emoticon

Gosto · 21 h

Niscala Devi Dasi Also very encouraging and enticing.

Gosto · 1 · 21 h

Niscala Devi Dasi One of Krsna's most endearing qualities is His affection for His devotees, and His protection of them. It is said that even on the path to Him, one cannot slip or fall. What to speak of being with Him?

Gosto · 2 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das If one falls from Vaikuṇṭha, how can it be considered superior to the material heavenly planets? One may answer that everyone without exception must fall from heaven, but only those who have never been to the material world are subject to falling from Vaikuṇṭha, so it is superior in this sense. But where is the śāstric evidence for such a proposal?

Vaikuṇṭha is a place free from anxiety. The three-fold miseries do not exist there.

The residents there do not suffer from the pangs of birth, death, disease and old age.

If the threat of falling from there existed, the residents would be in anxiety about it. And the more joy a resident experiences there, the more anxiety he would feel at the prospect of losing it.

Since the bliss experienced in Vaikuṇṭha is superior even to the bliss of Brahman (brahmānanda), the anxiety of losing it would have to be immense. But who would accept that Vaikuṇṭha is a place of anxiety, much less, the place of supreme anxiety? What to speak of falling down, one can not even slip, which is why Śrī Jīva Gosvāmī has used the word askhalanam and not apatanam!

So, the conclusion is that the living being does not fall from Vaikuṇṭha. And the good news is that although we are nitya-baddhas-perpetually bound-we can achieve liberation and become nitya-muktas.

_____

Very nicely done by Srila Satyanarayana das Babaji

Gosto · 1 · 21 h

Niscala Devi Dasi yes, veddy good points, veddy nice!

Gosto · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das "I can make you cheap price"

Gosto · 1 · 21 h

Uttamasloka Dasa Mahavirya Das:

That's not what Jiva Gosvami said. These topics are part of Bhagavata-sandarbha and obviously he felt they were 'very' important to understand for our foundation in bhakti. And for the record, there was absolutely 'no' controversy about this topic ever before.

The controversy started with Srila Prabhupada's private statements, which devotees are trying to use to supersede what he presented in his books. THAT is the real problem. These devotees are presenting apasiddhanta that ranges from speculation to the patently absurd, and then attributing it all to Srila Prabhupada, saying that is what he taught.

THAT is unacceptable to me and many others. In the light of the previous acaryas and sastra, it makes Srila Prabhupada seem to be at odds with them - even Krsna. I find that intolerable and I will never stop refuting this garbage.

And it's also very important from the perspective of the process, ie: if we fell and will simply be re-instated as before, then raganuga-bhakti makes no sense, nor does taking birth in bhauma-lila to finalize the perfection of our rasa and prema. So it is vitally important to understand and present the truth for the benefit of all Vaisnavas, or our philosophy will continue to morph is so many bizarre ways.

Gosto · 3 · 19 h

Tarun Govinda Das "It is useless to try to figure these things out with the parameters imposed on us by material nature, The energies of the Lord are inconceivable, the jiva-shakti included."

No...actually it is NOT USELESS.

It is quite easy:

JIVA => TATASTHA SAKTI

GOLOKA VRINDAVANA => SVARUPA SAKTI

Jiva-tattva is nothing "controversial" or "mysterious"...

Gosto · 1 · 19 h

Tarun Govinda Das Uttamasloka Dasa...chapeau!!!

Excellent points.

Gosto · 2 · 19 h

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Tarun Govinda Das tatra sādhana-bhaktiḥ—

kṛti-sādhyā bhavet sādhya-bhāvā sā sādhanābhidhā |

nitya-siddhasya bhāvasya prākaṭyaṁ hṛdi sādhyatā ||2||

Translation:

Now sādhana-bhakti will be defined:

Action of the senses, which produces the stage of bhāva, is called sādhana-bhakti. This attained state of bhāva-bhakti (sādhyatā) is an eternal sthāyi-bhāva which is not created, but simply manifests within the soul by the spiritual energy of the Lord.

JĪVA GOSVĀMĪ’S COMMENTARY

Uttama-bhakti has been described in a general way. When bhakti is cultivated (sādhyā) by actions (kṛti) of the senses, it is called sādhana-bhakti. Actions of the senses are included with-in the term bhakti in the same manner that preliminary purify-ing actions for performing sacrifice are included within the term “sacrifice,” though technically they are not part of the sacrifice. In order to distinguish this sādhana-bhakti from forms of bhakti that involve direct realization of the Lord, the word sādhya-bhāvā is used: sādhana ends with the attainment of bhāva. Sādhana is that by which bhāva and prema are achieved. Bhāva is not included in sādhana. However, the sādhya-rūpa or perfected form is also bhakti, being a part of it. The word sādhya-bhāvā (one meaning is “whose goal is bhāva-bhakti” but another meaning is “achieving its goal”) in any case excludes other goals of human endeavor (artha, dharma, kāma and mokṣa). This was already mentioned in the definition of uttama-bhakti (anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam) which includes within it this pre-sent definition.

A doubt may arise that since this state is achieved (sādhya), implying that it is artificially produced, it is not the ultimate goal. The second line responds to this doubt by saying that it is eternal, and simply appears within the heart. That is because its appearance (but not its creation) will be accomplished in the future by the special actions of the most excellent trans-formations (saṁvit and hlādinī) of Lord’s svarūpa-śakti (which are perfect and eternal).

Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s Commentary

When bhakti is accomplished by actions of the senses, it is called sādhana-bhakti. The action of the senses is included in bhakti (though the senses are material). This is similar to in-cluding the pūrva-karmas of the sacrifice as part of the sacri-fice. The intention of including sādhana (executed using the senses) in bhakti is to show that bhakti is produced only by bhakti and not by anything else. Such a purpose is fitting. The phrase sādhya-bhāvā is used in order to distinguish sādhana from bhāva-bhakti, which has actions such as hearing and chanting (called anubhāvas), which appear to be the same as the actions of sādhana bhakti, but which are actually different. Sādhya-bhāvā means “that by which bhāva-bhakti is generated.” Thus, by mentioning that the result is bhāva, other results such artha, dharma, kāma and mokṣa are automatically rejected. The word sādhya means, “Produced or achieved.” Hence, the phrase “sādhya-bhāvā” can mean, “that by which bhava is pro-duced”. This may give rise to the fear that, though bhāva-bhakti has been mentioned as supreme (uttama-bhakti), it may not actually be the supreme goal of human endeavor, because it is produced artificially or achieved (i.e. it is not eternal). The an-swer is given in the second line. This bhāva is eternal, and merely appears within the heart of the devotee. Bhāva also in-cludes hearing, chanting and other actions (it is not just emo-tions). These actions of bhāva (aṅgas of bhakti) also appear on the tongue or in the ear, but are not created, just as Kṛṣṇa ap-pears in the house of Vasudeva (but is not produced out of matter). The emotions and actions of bhāva are all eternal and spiritual and not material because their appearance in the fu-ture will be accomplished by the extraordinary actions of the most excellent transformations (saṁvit and hlādinī) of the Lord’s svarūpa-śakti.

Gosto · 1 · 19 h

Tarun Govinda Das This is from Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu and it clearly shows that we cannot have been THERE in Goloka Vrindavana and somehow we have lost something which is not IN US.

We attain this eternal bhava which is accomplished by the extraordinary actions of the most excellent transformations of the Lord's svarupa-sakti, namely hladini and samvit => BHAKTI.

So, Uttamasloka Dasa is fully right, raganuga- bhakti would be meaningless if we "have been" there and if we already possess this eternal bhava.

Here, Srila Rupa Goswami, Srila Jiva Goswami and Srila Vishvanatha Cakravartipad say something else completely.

By practicing sadhana-bhakti, we attain this eternal bhava which is then infused into our hearts via the Lord's inner potency (here a combination of hladini and samvit sakti).

Gosto · 2 · 16 h

Tarun Govinda Das And to support Uttamasloka Dasa's point even more:

I dare to very honest here:

Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami in his private talks only tried to help.

What he wrote in his books is what counts.

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

(SB 3.16.26)

Another big fat crux of the matter is the inability of many devotees to accept that we are nitya-baddha jivas.

We are eternally bound and we have never been in Krishna-lila. This is a tough nut to crack for many...

And Srila Bhaktivinod Thakur knew about it.

In Jaiva-dharma this exact problem comes up.

"It seems unfair that there are eternally free jivas and eternally bound jivas."

"Nope. This is actually the wrong perspective. It is not about us jivas, free or bound, it is about the Highest Enjoyer. It is because He wants it to be so. Because He is the master of lilas."

Of course, the Thakur uses much more elaborate words, but this is the point.

Sometimes the child wants to catch the moon. And to not frustrate the child, the parent says: "Not now. When you are older and bigger, you can catch him easily."

Gosto · 2 · 16 h · Editado

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

Escreve uma resposta...

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Tarun Govinda Das "And the good news is that although we are nitya-baddhas-perpetually bound-we can achieve liberation and become nitya-muktas."

This is the common ground- HOPE.

Gosto · Responder · 1 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das Enough "swamping" from my side.

Dandavats to the assembled devotees.

Gosto · Responder · 21 h

Prisni Dasi Karolina Lindqvist First you go to Brajabhumi, to get your relationships established, when you later go to Goloka, then Krishna will greet you are a family member, or whatever you are. Without first living in earthly Brajabhumi, those relationships are not established. You cannot be someone's sister, or brother, unless you yourself have the experience ofgrowing up with the other person. To suddenly just being assigned as family members, does not create such near and intimate relationships, that makes relationship with Krishna and his friends so sweet.

As a soul you will be the same, not somebody else, and you need relationships to grow on you, for them to be near.

Gosto · Responder · 3 · 21 h

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Tarun Govinda Das Yes.

“After the sādhaka body perishes, that loving devotee, who has eagerly desired direct devotional service for a long time, will at once, by the Lord’s grace, receive the gift of the desired service and the audience of the Lord and His eternal associates, just as He once bestowed direct audience to Nārada Muni.

He will give the sādhaka a transcendental gopīka body. Yogamāyā will make that body take birth from a gopīka mother in the manifest pastimes when Kṛṣṇa descends to earth with His eternal associates. There will not be a moment’s delay in that because the prakaṭa-līlā goes on without interruption. He will take birth in that material universe where Kṛṣṇa plays His manifest Vṛndāvana līlā at that time. Kṛṣṇa and His associates appear when the loving practicing devotee leaves his body.

Therefore, O greatly eager anurāgi devotees, don’t be afraid! Be at ease! All is auspicious for You!” RVC, 2.7

Gosto · 2 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das It is not that we fell down from there and somehow we forgot all these things...grin emoticon

Gosto · 1 · 21 h

Tarun Govinda Das Ooops...I swamped again...

Gosto · 1 · 21 h

Vishwambhar Priya smile emoticon

Gosto · 21 h

Mahavirya Das Very interesting and documented comments.

A few questions arise though if you allow me to play devil's advocate... What happens with the simple concept of ''back to Godhead'' obviously supported by Srila Prabhupada?

A concept that seems to be also supported by Sanatan Gosvami in his Brhad-bhagavatamrta in the ''return'' of Gopa-kumara.

And if the jivatma was ''never'' with Krishna before(since time seems to be a necessary factor in this conversation) how can the sat-cit-ananda nature be attributed to him?

Ananda is reciprocal and cit implies cognisance and these are eternal. So if the jiva was not with Krishna or Krishna concious in some way at one point, what was the object of his ananda and of what was he cognitive of since time immemorial ?

And if we accept that this sat-cit-ananda nature becomes ''covered'' we must also accept it's previous functional existence. How can something become covered if it was not uncovered before ?

Gosto · 9 h

Uttamasloka Dasa Mahavirya Das:

The story of Gopa-kumara in Brihad-bhagavatamrita is not an 'explanation' of how we enter the lila. We don't wander throughout the universe and all its layers, then go to Vaikuntha and finally to Goloka. That's not how it works.

Srila Prabhupada confirms the same thing Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explained in the reference I gave above, ie: you don't go "back to Godhead" right away. You first take birth in bhauma-lila to further develop your prema and rasa. Only then, are we qualified to enter the unmanifest lila, ie: "go back to Godhead". Here is the reference from Srila Prabhupada in Krsna Book, chapter 28:

The fact is that those who are always engaged in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Kṛṣṇa’s association ***in one of the universes within the material world.*** Kṛṣṇa’s pastimes are continuously going on, either in this universe or in another universe. Just as the sun globe is passing over many places across this earthly planet, so kṛṣṇa-līlā, or the transcendental advent and pastimes of Kṛṣṇa, are also going on continuously, either in this or another universe.

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Kṛṣṇa consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Kṛṣṇa is appearing. ***In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Kṛṣṇa personally and directly. The training goes on,*** as we see in the vṛndāvana-līlā of Kṛṣṇa within this planet. KB, Ch 28

Ananda is reciprocal and cit implies cognisance and these are eternal. So if the jiva was not with Krishna or Krishna concious in some way at one point, what was the object of his ananda and of what was he cognitive of since time immemorial ?>

Here is how Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains it in his essay - Brahmana and Vaisnava:

Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state.

Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.

The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism.

That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind’s fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment.

Due to being situated in the marginal position, living entities who are averse to Hari assume the nature of mixed consciousness; in other words, when the marginal energy living entities mix with the external energy, they consider themselves the enjoyers and then enter the material world. The cause of the spirit soul's coming to live in this world in aversion to Krsna is his misuse of his free will. When this aversion becomes strong, the living entities accept a material mind and body in order to enjoy the temporary material world and thus come under the control of fruitive reactions.

And when, on the strength of pious activities, they become transcendental to the varnasrama principles, which distinguish superior and inferior behavior in this world, they become paramahamsas by perfecting themselves through sadhana. Those who become paramahamsas are the Hari-janas. And those who fall from the platform of paramahamsa and engage in fruitive activities while associating with matter are situated on the platform of varnasrama.

That is the nature of the tatastha-sakti jiva. It can be covered by maya or it can enter the svarupa-sakti and the eternal lila.

Gosto · 6 · 7 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das "So if the jiva was not with Krishna or Krishna concious in some way at one point, what was the object of his ananda and of what was he cognitive of since time immemorial ?"

First of all, the sat-cit-ananda of the jiva is not the same as of Sri Krishna.

The jiva is an eternal energy if the Lord, sat.

The jiva is conscious of his ksetra (field), cit, Krishna is conscious of all ksetras (as the Supersoul). The jiva is not "full of knowledge (of his eternal svarupa, for example)" and somehow forgot that full knowledge.

The jiva has a different ananda in its pure form: Jiva Goswami calls it "free of misery" and the "capability" to experience bliss.

The jiva can "use" this capability for bliss by looking for it in the material world or the jiva can turn towards Krishna and by causeless mercy start the ultimate path of happiness, bhakti.

There are different kinds of ananda...the ananda of merging with brahman is one too.

So, Krishna's "sat-cit-ananda" is different from our nature.

A drop of the ocean has not the exact same qualities of the ocean.

Object of his ananda = FREE OF MISERY

Conscious = his being a spiritual being

Gosto · 2 · 6 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das Some nice points, again by Srila Satyanarayana das Babaji:

If full of knowledge and bliss, then why does the Self never feel it? Why is the Self incessantly hankering for knowledge and bliss? In fact, all our actions are ultimately aimed at attaining these two goals. Just as darkness can never cover light, ignorance can never shroud knowledge. Darkness is nothing but absence of light. It is not a positive entity. To cover something, the covering agent must have positive existence. When Krsna says that ignorance covers knowledge (Gita 5.15), He means ignorance covers the discriminating faculty. In other words, a person loses the ability to make proper decisions and is thus bewildered. Krsna Himself recommends approaching a teacher and acquiring knowledge from him (Gita 4.34).

If knowledge were inside the Self, He would have recommended to approach a teacher to get the covering of inherent knowledge removed. Indeed He would not even have recommended going to a teacher but to a peeler, who can peel away ignorance. Krishna specifically uses the words, “The teachers will impart knowledge to you.” In the same vein a few verses later (Gita 4.39), Krishna says that a man of faith who attains knowledge (jnana) become peaceful. If that knowledge were already there, there was no need to attain it in the first place. In verse 7.2. again, Krishna declares to Arjuna that He will now impart unto him this knowledge.

Gosto · 1 · 7 h

Tarun Govinda Das More:

The Self is meta-physical and thus beyond any sense perception and mind. It is not subject to logic. The only way it can be understood is through the scriptures. Sri Krishna describes the self as acintya, or inconceivable by mind or logic (Gita 2.25). Bhisma says, “That which is inconceivable,acintya, cannot be understood by logic. Metaphysical objects are called acintya” (Mahabharata, Bhisma Parva 5.12). The sun may be covered by clouds to others but it is never covered to itself. Similarly, if I were full of bliss and knowledge, then how could I lose sight of it even if I were covered by ignorance? Ignorance can only cover, but not take away, that knowledge. Even though there may be ignorance all around me, I would still be full of knowledge and bliss. But such is not our experience.

A drop of the ocean does not have all the qualities of the ocean. The ocean has waves, a drop does not. The ocean is full of aquatics, but not the drop. One can sail on the ocean, not on a drop. If I have forgotten about my necklace around my neck and someone points it out to me, I immediately know it and give up my search. But no matter how many times someone tells me that I am full of knowledge and bliss, I realize no bliss and remain as ignorant or knowledgeable as I was before. Why? Because I do not have knowledge and bliss inherent in me. Such examples neither prove nor disprove anything. Examples only assist us in comprehending a known conclusion.

If I am a pauper, I remain a pauper, even though someone may repeatedly tell me that I am a prince. In Paramatma Sandarbha (28), Sri Jiva Gosvami explicitly says that the self is devoid of knowledge, although conscious by nature, and it lacks bliss although free of any material misery. In other words, it has the potential (svarupa yogyata) to get knowledge and bliss but not yet the functionality (phalopadhayi yogyata). To give an example, a child has the potential to be an athlete or a graduate, but that potential is not realized unless he practices on the track or goes to college and studies.

Gosto · 7 h

Tarun Govinda Das This explains why we have an innate drive for these two things. A baby is inquisitive from birth, and this inquisitiveness continues until death. Although the Self is part of God, it is only part of one of His potencies, i.e., intermediate potency, or tatastha sakti. It does not have in it the other two potencies, i.e., bahiranga or external and antaranga or internal. When it is said that a knower of Brahman becomes Brahman, it means that he becomes like Brahman. He acquires some of the features of Brahman (Sadharmya Gita 14.2). Nobody can become Brahman. The Self is infinitesimal in size and does not have internal potency in it, hence it is prone to be influenced by the other two energies, i.e., bahiranga or antaranga. In the present state, it is under the influence of bahiranga, or external potency.

This influence is affected by the inconceivable power of God, called Maya. Maya belongs to God and for this reason one can become free of Maya's influence only by the grace of God or His devotee. Even after being freed of this influence, the Self does not become God but remains a fragment of God—only now it has knowledge and bliss.

Gosto · 7 h

Tarun Govinda Das Srila Jiva Goswami very wonderfully describes jiva-tattva, and not only in this Anuccheda from the Paramatma Sandarbha...nothing is controversial or veiled or hidden or mysterious.

grin emoticon

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Tarun Govinda Das "In Paramatma Sandarbha (28), Sri Jiva Gosvami explicitly says that the self is devoid of knowledge, although conscious by nature, and it lacks bliss although free of any material misery. In other words, it has the potential (svarupa yogyata) to get knowledge and bliss but not yet the functionality (phalopadhayi yogyata)."

Very clear.

Bliss here compared to the bliss of the svarupa sakti.

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Tarun Govinda Das "The story of Gopa-kumara in Brihad-bhagavatamrita is not an 'explanation' of how we enter the lila. We don't wander throughout the universe and all its layers, then go to Vaikuntha and finally to Goloka. That's not how it works. "

Thank you, Uttamasloka Dasa.

This wonderful book is always brought up us an argument...grin emoticon

Gosto · 1 · 6 h

Tarun Govinda Das "Back to Godhead" - I always could cope with the term by understanding that we finally become aware of our own "Godliness"....because we BELONG with Krishna...that doesn´t mean we have been there...

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Mahavirya Das Yes! Very eloquently said by Bhaktisiddhanta and corroborated by your good self. A few points remain unclear though.

Nothing in what you quoted substantiates where the notion of '' back to Godhead'' comes from and why it was ever introduced so broadly by Srila Prabhupada.

Secondly. If Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta is just a fantasy as you seem to imply, why write it ?

Gosto · 2 h

Tarun Govinda Das Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta is FULL of NECTAREAN teachings, but not one supports the fall-theory.

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Tarun Govinda Das "If Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta is just a fantasy as you seem to imply, why write it ?"

Nobody said this.

Gosto · 1 · 1 h

Mahavirya Das ''Sanatana Gosvami's Brhad-bhagavatamrta is FULL of NECTAREAN teachings, but not one supports the fall-theory.''

It certainly supports the ''return'' to Gopala.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das The story of Gopa Kumar is not the "story" of a normal jiva.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das But I won´t fight with you.

Those who are happy with having fallen down, fine.

I am not and I never was.

No acarya and no shastra gives evidence that the jiva was "with Krishna" and then "fell down".

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Mahavirya Das ''The story of Gopa Kumar is not the "story" of a normal jiva.''

Really ??? Where is that corroborated?

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Radhe Shyam.

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Tarun Govinda Das "The story of Gopa-kumara in Brihad-bhagavatamrita is not an 'explanation' of how we enter the lila. We don't wander throughout the universe and all its layers, then go to Vaikuntha and finally to Goloka. That's not how it works. "

...nor does it prove "falling down".

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Mahavirya Das Then why write it or even conceive of it ?

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das To teach the devotees who has the topmost love for Krishna and which is the topmost realm.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuṇṭha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

(SB 3.16.26)

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das But if you like, feel free to believe that Sanatana Goswami advocated fall-vada.

No problem....

We are here now, we want to attain Goloka Vrindavana.

Jay Sri Radhe.

Gosto · 1 h

Niscala Devi Dasi Mahavirya Das: It certainly supports the ''return'' to Gopala.

Gopala is the origin of everything. When we return to Him, we are returning to our origin. But when we left Him, we were devoid of prema for Him, hence not in Vaikuntha, nor Goloka, which by their very definition are places from which no one falls. Sastra has stated the origin to be the brahmajyoti, which emanates from Krsna and is non-different. The souls there are devoid of prema.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Dandavats. I am out of this particular debate. Unfortunately, everything I posted is not enough for Mahavirya Das. I tried my best.

I apologize.

To claim that Sanatana Goswami wrote a book which supports "fall-vada" is ...well...whatever...

The Goswamis all were totally in sync.

But like I said: If someone loves to believe that we were with Krishna and we fell down...awesome. Go for it and try to get back.

Gosto · 1 h · Editado

Niscala Devi Dasi He is definitely in argumentative mood as he is not taking into account all the quotes you gave. You did well.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Sanatana Goswami wrote his masterpiece for this reason:

To teach the devotees who has the topmost love for Krishna and which is the topmost realm.

RADHIKA & GOLOKA VRINDAVANA.

Why would Sanatana Goswami write a book which TOTALLY and UTTERLY contradicts Jiva Goswami or all the other acaryas quoted...???

Gosto · 1 h · Editado

Mahavirya Das I am not argumernting but asking simple questions.

If I would argue I would post contrary statements like this:

In his Bhakti-sandarbha Anuccheda 1, Text 9, Jiva Goswami then gives Sridhara Swami’s commentary:

It (fear) is created because the ORIGINAL SPIRITUAL FORM of the living entity is not manifest. Why does the material energy (maya) do this? Because the living entity has TURNED AWAY from the Supreme Lord (isad apetasya), the material energy makes him FORGET (asmrtih), and thus his own ORIGINAL SPIRITUAL FORM is NO LONGER manifested. From this comes the misidentification (viparyayah) of thinking ‘I am this body.’ Thus, from being absorbed in something other than the Supreme Lord (dvitiyabhinivesatah) fear (bhayam) is created.”

That is an argument.

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Translated by whom?

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Mahavirya Das ... But I am not arguing smile emoticon

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Translated by whom? This part?

Gosto · 1 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das Sanskrit?

Gosto · 1 h

Tarun Govinda Das Can you please tell us whose edition of the Bhakti Sandarbha this comes from?

Gosto · 1 h

Mahavirya Das Radhe Shyama!

Gosto · 59 min

Niscala Devi Dasi >>Because the living entity has TURNED AWAY from the Supreme Lord (isad apetasya)

He has turned away, because his origin is Krsna and he has an eternal relationship with Krsna of nitya krsna dasa, so he has turned his back on his eternal master...eternally...nitya baddha.

Gosto · 59 min

Tarun Govinda Das He is not giving the origin of this translation. I am still at school.

I will check at home.

Gosto · 58 min

Tarun Govinda Das Turned away - BAHIR MUKHA...nothing new... anadi => beginningless...

I will check if this is in the text - "ORIGINAL SPIRITUAL FORM".

Usually this meant as "eternal servant of Krishna"...and not as a full blown SIDDHA DEHA...let´s see...

Gosto · 53 min · Editado

Mahavirya Das To end my intervention here before anybody gets into fault finding and character assasination, I must admit that I tend to agree with this conclusion:

''Srila Prabhupada has explained that in one sense we do not really fall. Our position is like a person who is dreaming. The person is lying on his own bed, but he is dreaming he is elsewhere. When he wakes up, he finds himself on his own bed. Actually, he never left his bed. He was just dreaming. So our position is like that. We never leave our original position. Krsna simply creates a situation where we dream we have left. But when we wake up from the dream of material life, we find ourselves in our original position. The position never changes. We simply forget it for some time. So in that sense no one falls. Nevertheless, the original position is one of service to Krsna in the spiritual world. This is the way that Srila Prabhupada consistently answered questions about the fall of the jiva. He directly rejected suggestions that we were originally in the brahmajyoti or that we have been eternally in this material world. He never said we were from the Viraja River, nor did he say our original position was different from the position we will attain upon going back to Godhead. These conclusions are in harmony with those of the previous acaryas and the sastras, especially Srimad-Bhagavatam. ''

(The Origin of the Jiva

by Drutakarma Dasa)

Gosto · 50 min

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

Escreve uma resposta...

Aden Hinds This philosophical anomaly really bothered me for quite some time when I first became interested in Vaisnava philosophy, also because what KKS is saying here is the default explanation in ISKCON by most sannyasi's. Fortunately I was guided to meet souls who shared the correct understanding with me which was a huge relief. The proposed fall from Goloka just never made real sense and actually compromises the whole philosophy.. Uttamasloka Dasa, you are a wealth of transcendental knowledge prabhu, thank you for your association even though it's only been online up to now.. Dandavats

Gosto · Responder · 5 · 7 h · Editado

Uttamasloka Dasa Thanks Aden Hinds. FYI, here's an excerpt from my book with a more detailed analysis...

http://raganugabhakti.freeforums.net/.../book-excerpt...

Gosto · 6 h · Editado

Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari

Escreve uma resposta...

Tarun Govinda Das Aden Hinds, I asked my then ISKCON-Sri Gurudeva, Srila Harikesa Swami, at least 5 times about HOW CAN WE FALL DOWN...not one answer was satisfying and I felt that he somehow felt it too..grin emoticon

I never believed it

Gosto · Responder · 6 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das Actually, there are much more points to consider which shoot the "fall theory" to pieces...

To "enter" Goloka Vrindavana, we need to give up our body. Why?

Because, like Srila Vishvanatha Chakravartipad wrote, we are not able to experience the necessary "emotions" in our material body...to experience full-blown PREMA, we need to take birth in prakat-lila.

So, every soul in Goloka Vrindavana is FULL OF the highest PREMA which is ETERNALLY so...how can we "forget or lose" such kind of PREMA???

This PREMA can NEVER be lost...in fact, it is not in the jiva. It is to be attained.

Another shot:

Krishna is so kind, so much so that each liberated jiva is awarded a spiritual body.

Priti Sandarbha (Srila Jiva Goswami)

vaikuṇṭhasya bhagavato jyotir-aṁśa-bhūtā vaikuṇṭha-loka-śobha-rūpā yā anantā mūrtayas tatra vartante tāsām ekayā saha muktasyaikasya mūrtir bhagavatā kriyata iti vaikuṇṭasya mūrtir iva mūrtir yeṣām ity uktam

"In the spiritual world, the Supreme Lord has unlimited spiritual forms; they all are expansions of Himself illuminating that world. Of these mūrtis Bhagavān gives one mūrti to each liberated soul. Their mūrti is like the one of Lord Vaikuṇṭha."

KRIYATE means that Krishna will give us a spiritual body...we are awarded with such a body.

vasanti yatra puruṣāḥ

sarve vaikuṇṭha-mūrtayaḥ

ye ’nimitta-nimittena

dharmeṇārādhayan harim

– (SB 3.15.14)

In the Vaikuṇṭha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. They all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification.

This is the goal of bhakti.

Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu

|| 1.2.295 ||

sevā sādhaka-rūpeṇa siddha-rūpeṇa cātra hi |

tad-bhāva-lipsunā kāryā vraja-lokānusārataḥ ||295||

Translation: Following after the inhabitants of Vraja, one should perform service in one’s physical body and in one’s siddha body, with a desire for a particular bhāva.

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary

Sādhaka-rūpa refers to the physical body of the practitioner. Siddha-rūpa refers to the body which is suitable for one’s desired service, and which has been developed by internal meditation. One serves with a desire for the particular bhāva or rati of an associate of Kṛṣṇa situated in Vraja (tad-bhāva-lipsunā). One should follow in the footsteps of the dear associates of Kṛṣṇa in Vraja (vraja-lokā) and others loyal to them.

Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s Commentary

One performs service with sādhaka-rūpa—the present body—and with the siddha-rūpa—the body which is suitable for serving Vraja Kṛṣṇa in the particular type of rati or bhāva one desires, and which is meditated upon (antaś-cintitābhīṣṭa) through inner contemplation with a desire for a particular rati directed to one’s beloved Kṛṣṇa situated in Vṛndāvana (tad–bhāva-lipsunā).

One should follow after the dear devotees of Kṛṣṇa such as Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and those following after them—persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs (vraja-lokānuṣārataḥ).

Accordingly, one should perform mental service in one’s siddha-rūpa, following after the examples of Śrī Rādhā, Lalitā, Viśākhā, Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī and others.

In one’s physical body, one should perform services using one’s body, following after persons such as Śrī Rūpa and Sanātana Gosvāmīs situated in Vraja.

By the word vraja-lokā, one should understand persons situated in Vraja — Rādhā, Candrāvalī and others. Following after them, one should perform service using one’s physical body also.

So, according to the RATI we desire/develop, Krishna awards us with a certain spiritual body which suits our desire, our developed BHAVA, perfectly.

First we meditated upon it (antaś-cintitābhīṣṭa) through inner contemplation and then at perfection, we will receive such a spiritual body.

Now, if we actually fell down and if we somehow forgot or lost our eternal identity, this would all make no sense at all...

An eternal relationship (RASA) is eternal...it can´t be "broken"...

We have to develop this RASA by sadhana-bhakti. Then we attain bhava-bhakti, then prema-bhakti...

It is not a process of "remembering something which I forgot"...it is a process of ACTUAL self-realization...not self-remembering.

Or some say we just "dream" about our material existence...so if we are "still there", why then would Srila Rupa Goswami write such things?

How can Krishna award us with a spiritual body when we are still there, dreaming our material existence?

How can Krishna award us with a spiritual body when actually, we have that spiritual body "within us", just "covered" by maya?

Impossible.

Gosto · Responder · 2 h · Editado

Tarun Govinda Das Another one:

How can the fall-theory pertain when we consider that a liberated soul can be awarded with several spiritual forms?

Vedanta Sutra 4.4.12:

The final word on the subject -

The mukta has both a body and a bodiless nature because the scriptures describe them in both ways. A technical example of a Vedic sacrifice is given to illustrate this point. However, due to the muktas' release from the body and their quality of 'satya-sankalpa' (having their wishes realised instantaneously), assume a body by the force of their mere will, and they can have as many as they like (within reason!). Those muktas who do not wish to possess a body will not choose to do so. Those muktas who choose to assume bodies do so out of their wish to serve Hari, manifesting His cit-sakti as they do so.

Then it is described that the mukta's body has a nature like that of Hari's, whereby they see, hear, smell, perceive and know through His energy alone.

Verily, the mukta's body is an aṁśa of Hari!

(SEE JIVA GOSWAMI IN PRITI SANDARBHA - vaikuṇṭhasya bhagavato jyotir-aṁśa-bhūtā vaikuṇṭha-loka-śobha-rūpā)

Srimat Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes that the will of the mukta (THE DESIRE TO ATTAIN A PARTICULAR FORM), which is operative in all of this, has to be cultivated from the beginning of the sadhaka's spiritual practice, and that it is the same will that was cultivated during the time of sadhana.

"Since this had been his aspiration, even before Mukti, it becomes realised in the state of Mukti."

(EXACTLY WHAT SRILA RUPA GOSWAMI WRITES IN 1.2.295 AND WHAT THE COMMENTATORS WRITE TOO:

"...has to be cultivated (MEDITATED UPON - antaś-cintitābhīṣṭa) from the BEGINNING (!!!!!!!!!!!) of the sadhaka's spiritual practice, and that it is the same will that was cultivated during the time of sadhana."

Totally in sync.

Sorry Drutakarma, You're Wrong

In Origin of the Jiva,
Drutakarma wrote:

He (Srila Prabhupada) directly rejected suggestions that we were originally in the brahmajyoti
Here is evidence this is simply not true:

Srila Prabhupada: The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

Srila Prabhupada: Thus the body is considered material and the soul is considered spiritual. The origin of them both, however, is the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. . . Everything is born of the Supreme Brahman, from which everything emanates as different energies. (Bhag. 8.12.8, purport)
The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti-spiritual effulgence-is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free. [Krsna Book, Ch. 20, Description of Autumn]

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

Uttamasloka Dasa Excellent reference Niscala Devi Dasi! Everything is in Srila Prabhupada's books, but the irony is that those who most often hammer everyone with that slogan, do not actually study them very carefully or with a purpose. grin emoticon

Here is a verse and commentary from Brahma-samhita where it is clearly stated that Maha Visnu is the source of the tatastha jivas. This is confirmed by Jiva Gosvami in his commentary. Please note that this does not refer to the unlimited nitya-baddha jivas who are sleeping within Maha Visnu since the dissolution of the previous universe. Those jivas are referred to separately in verse 20 later on. Here is the verse:

That master of the universe, Mahā-Viṣṇu, possesses thousands upon thousands of heads, thousands upon thousands of eyes, thousands upon thousands of arms, and thousands upon thousands of incarnations and plenary expansions. He is the Self of the cosmos, ***and He alone creates thousands upon thousands of living entities.***

From Jiva Gosvami’s commentary:

The form of Mahā-Viṣṇu is being described thus in the current verse beginning with the words sahasra-śirṣā. He whose innumerable incarnations appear in thousands upon thousands of plenary portions is called sahasrāṁśa. Similarly, ***He who creates thousands upon thousands of living entities is called sahasrasüḥ.*** Here the word sahasra (one thousand) has been used to indicate an uncountable number. It is evident that the word sahasra is used throughout the scriptures to convey the sense of “innumerable.” BrS, 5.11

Now let’s look at what Bhaktivinoda Thakura says in Jaiva-dharma, Chapter 16, Jīvas Possessed by Māyā. In this section we’ll see that Balarama generates jivas who directly enter Vraja lila, and Sankarsana, and expansion of Balarama, generates jivas who directly enter Vaikuntha lila. Those jivas remain there eternally and never fall. And fully confirming the verse (11) by Lord Brahma in Brahma-samhita, Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that the tatastha jivas emanate from the effulgence (brahmajyoti) of Maha Visnu. Here is the excerpt:

Bābājī: …Innumerable jīvas appear from Śrī Baladeva Prabhu to serve Vṛndāvana-vihari Śrī Kṛṣṇa as His eternal associates in Goloka Vṛndāvana, and others appear from Śrī Sankarsana to serve the Lord of Vaikuṇṭha, Śrī Nārāyana, in the spiritual sky.

Eternally relishing rasa, engaged in the service of their worshipable Lord, they always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always strive to please Bhagavān, and are always attentive to Him. Having attained the strength of cit-śakti, they are always strong.

***They have no connection with the material energy. In fact, they do not know if there is a bewildering energy called māyā or not. Because they reside in the spiritual world, māyā is very far away from them and does not affect them at all.***

***Always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord, they are eternally liberated and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is love alone, and they are not even conscious of misery, death or fear.***

***There are also innumerable, atomic, conscious jīvas who emanate as rays in Karanodakasayi Mahā-Viṣṇu’s glance upon His māyā-śakti. Because these jīvas are situated next to māyā, they perceive her wonderful workings.***

Although they have all the qualities of the jīvas that I have already described, because of their minute and marginal nature, they sometimes look to the spiritual world, and sometimes to the material world. In this marginal condition, the jīva is very weak because at that time he has not attained spiritual strength from the mercy of the object of his worship (sevā-vastu).

Among these unlimited jīvas, those who want to enjoy māyā become engrossed in mundane sense gratification and enter the state of nitya-baddha. On the other hand, the jīvas who perform cid-anuśilanam of Bhagavān receive spiritual śakti (cid-bala) by His mercy, and enter the spiritual world. JD, Chapter 16, Page 377-378
Não gosto · Responder · 8 · 18 h

Citisakti Devi Dasi Wow!!!!! I had no idea an explanation like this even existed. Thank you, Uttamasloka Prabhu.
Gosto · Responder · 3 · 16 h

Uttamasloka Dasa You're welcome Citisakti Devi Dasi. grin emoticon

To augment the excerpt from Sri Isopanisad that Niscala posted, here is more from Srila Prabhupada's purport to verse 17:

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. SI, 17, Purport
Não gosto · Responder · 6 · 16 h

Amara Das Wilhelm Great references!
Gosto · Responder · 3 · 16 h

Eldan Yaniv the brahmjioti is just for beginners like gyanis. even they can see it. and get from it seizing of suffering or liberation from the 8 elemented body. and feel their soul.
Gosto · Responder · 1 · 12 h

Niscala Devi Dasi That is why having impersonal liberation as a goal is so foolish. We come from the brahmajyoti due to dissatisfaction, otherwise we would not have left it, so why should we strive to go back to a position which is inherently dissatisfying and therefore not permanent- from which jivas prefer to enter the samsara cycle rather than stay? Sayuja is therefore described by our intelligent acaryas as "hellish".

If we come from the brahmajyoti, and that is the destination for which we were meant, as the impersonalists contend, then what is the purpose of throwing us into the material field? To learn what? It would be like throwing a university student into kindergarten, from which he emerges as a university student. Such a proposition is akin to atheism- a universe empty of intelligence and certainly empty of love.

We go through the hellish cycle of samsara to learn and evolve to something, not to regress back to the womb of the Brahman.
Gosto · Responder · 1 · 7 h

Uttamasloka Dasa In a deeper ontological sense, we came from Maha Visnu via His effulgence, so even though the brahmajyoti is considered an impersonal energy, it has the Supreme Person as its energetic source, so really, we have ultimately come from the Supreme Person. The specific medium of manifestation is somewhat of a technicality. grin emoticon
Gosto · Responder · 4 · 7 h

Niscala Devi Dasi So the impersonal Brahman is not really impersonal, as it is composed of jivas, each with a swarupa?
Gosto · Responder · 1 · 7 h

Uttamasloka Dasa

Well, I'm not sure about the exact details as I haven't yet read Paramatma-sandarbha, where I believe such details are found. Stay tuned. grin emoticon
Gosto · Responder · 2 · 6 h

Amara Das Wilhelm It is impersonal because the living entities are all in an unmanifest seedlike form without any personal characteristics. Just like a seed is not a tree and does not have any characteristics of a tree, but the potential is there.