well, many, many devotees accept this possibility of multiple svarupas.
"He could also have been both a gopa and a gopi, as many double svarupas are described in Gaura Ganodeśa Dīpikā." (Advaita Dasa)
1 - "For example, despite the fact that Rupa Goswami is known to be Sri Rupa Manjari, by this logic of multiple svarupas one could also say that Sri Rupa is also possibly a cowherd boy as well..."
No, this only happens to those who are not situated in the rasa of mahaprabhu (madhurya). Then they are included in the intimate circle of conjugal devotees as explained by SBSST and SP.
2 - The argument that only nitya siddhas can have multiple svarupas does not apply because nitya siddha and sadhana siddha BOTH are siddhas.
3 - "Baladeva cites Chandogya for the purpose of establishing that the liberated jiva can have a spiritual form, and in doing so points out that such a liberated soul may have more than one form (as Chandogya implies). Again, the standard Gaudiya explanation of this is that sadhana-siddha devotees appear in both Gaura and Kishna-lilas in different forms."
=Is Prabhupada a manifestation of the svarupa-sakti like Subala, or is he a perfected devotee, a sadhana siddha. If one chooses the latter, the citing of Kavi-karnapura on this point does not hold up well, for the standard understanding in the sampradaya is that such devotees follow in the footsteps of devotees like Subala but cannot be thought of as being one of them. And although they may appear in two svarupas, they do so by appearing in one form in Krishna-lila and one in Gaura-lila, not two different svarupas constituted of different sthayi-bhavas in Krishna-lila. Let us also remember that the teaching is that one attains that which one cultivates. We find Prabhupada directly cultivating sakhya rasa in his poem aboard the Jaladuta. How could he then attain two svarupas, one a gopi and one a gopa?=
sadhana siddhas tem a mesma potencia de nitya siddhas. ambos são siddhas.
prabhodananda, dhanajaya, etc tem dois sthayi bhava em krsna lila.
=If one chooses the former, it may at first appear to hold weight, but a closer look takes some of the gravity out of it again. In only one instance I am aware does Kavi-karnapura attribute different svarupas of varying sentiments to one devotee. This is Ramanada Raya, who Kavi-karnapura considers to be two different gopis as well as Pandava Arjuna. He arrives at this conclusion based on the testimony of learned devotees, words from the Padma Purana, and the words of Sri Caitanaya. However, even in this instance of Ramananda appearing as as two different gopis, he does not have two different sthayi-bhavas in Vraja-lila. Both forms mentioned in Kavi-karnapura’s conclusion are those of gopis, and Pandava Arjuna is not directly a member of the Vraja-lila.=
sim, duas gopis NA MESMA LILA.......isto significa que elas tem dois stthayi bhavas diferente, senão para que DUAS GOPIS (assim como prabhodananda que é sakhi e manjari). e mesmo assim a possibilidade de uma mesma jiva com dois svarupas na mesma lila.
=Is Prabhupada a manifestation of the svarupa-sakti like Subala, or is he a perfected devotee, a sadhana siddha. If one chooses the latter, the citing of Kavi-karnapura on this point does not hold up well, for the standard understanding in the sampradaya is that such devotees follow in the footsteps of devotees like Subala but cannot be thought of as being one of them. And although they may appear in two svarupas, they do so by appearing in one form in Krishna-lila and one in Gaura-lila, not two different svarupas constituted of different sthayi-bhavas in Krishna-lila. Let us also remember that the teaching is that one attains that which one cultivates. We find Prabhupada directly cultivating sakhya rasa in his poem aboard the Jaladuta. How could he then attain two svarupas, one a gopi and one a gopa?=
sadhana siddhas tem a mesma potencia de nitya siddhas. ambos são siddhas.
prabhodananda, dhanajaya, etc tem dois sthayi bhava em krsna lila.
=If one chooses the former, it may at first appear to hold weight, but a closer look takes some of the gravity out of it again. In only one instance I am aware does Kavi-karnapura attribute different svarupas of varying sentiments to one devotee. This is Ramanada Raya, who Kavi-karnapura considers to be two different gopis as well as Pandava Arjuna. He arrives at this conclusion based on the testimony of learned devotees, words from the Padma Purana, and the words of Sri Caitanaya. However, even in this instance of Ramananda appearing as as two different gopis, he does not have two different sthayi-bhavas in Vraja-lila. Both forms mentioned in Kavi-karnapura’s conclusion are those of gopis, and Pandava Arjuna is not directly a member of the Vraja-lila.=
sim, duas gopis NA MESMA LILA.......isto significa que elas tem dois stthayi bhavas diferente, senão para que DUAS GOPIS (assim como prabhodananda que é sakhi e manjari). e mesmo assim a possibilidade de uma mesma jiva com dois svarupas na mesma lila.
In Vedanta Sutra BV explains that jivan muktas can simultaneously have many bodies free from karma. like emoticon
And then Tripurari Maharaja also says:
"This does not necessarily mean that the associate of Mahaprabhu is in fact those two souls of Krsna lila appearing as one in Gaura lila, ALTHOUGH THIS POSSIBILITY DOES EXIST."
Despite of the standard Gaudiya explanation THIS POSSIBILITY DOES EXIST.
Some more interesting points:
"In govinda lilamrta (7.116-117) the priya narma sakhas are clearly said to be angikrta, "accepted" by the asta-sakhis. Nor does rupa goswami place the sakhas, ordinary ones or priya narma sakhas, above the sakhis. priya narma sakhas, although closer to sakhi bhava than the other sakhas, are nonetheless placed in the same chapter of bhakti rasamrta sindhu (3.3) as the ordinary sakhas, two chapters before the sakhis (3.5, in ascending order, which means the sakhis are two classes higher than the sakhas)...
...Since the kama gayatri is given to every gaudiya vaisnava, this too indicates that madhurya rasa is meant for all its members. Even a priya narma sakha could chant it, since he is sakhi bhavam samasrita (rupa goswami on subal sakha), but what about ordinary gopas and elderly gopis etc.?" (Advaita Dasa)
OH MY FRIENDS !!! PRIYA NARMA SAKHAS shall not enter or hear the unique and intimate esoteric matters of MADHURYA RASA !!!
Therefore all Srila Prabhupada's followers who want to pursue Madhurya Rasa must approach a Guru in Madhurya Rasa ... or maybe (for sure) Srila Prabhupada has a simultaneous Svarupa in Madhurya Rasa.
Sometimes when Radharani and Krsna are performing His pastimes of union, Radharani holds with her, even at this time, a Manjari. I do not think this happens in the case of Priya Narma Sakhas.
Anyway, Guru Goswami did not explain the Madhurya Rasa details for Vrajanatha. Only to Vijaya. For some reason will be. Or Srila Bhaktivinoda is going against Rupa Goswami and Jiva Goswami !!!
Probably because the Bhava of Priya Narma Sakhas, although very high (Maha Bhava) is not the same as of the Manjaris.
=And this is not a question of comparing the priya-narma-sakhas with the sakhis or manjaris. That's not the point. They are absolutely involved in making madhurya-rasa happen - that's the point.=
The point is that according Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Jaiva Dharma, sadhakas aspiring to be priya narma sakhas cannot hear intimate topics of madhurya rasa.
To some extent they can hear.
=I don't think Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura made a mistake. The priya-narma-sakhas don't get to peek through the vines to see the intimate pastimes like the sakhis do, so there are some limitations, but that doesn't mean they don't know or understand what's going on.=
yes, but he goes on to say that sadhakas who aspire to be priya narma sakhas cannot hear the details of madhurya.
and in fact guru goswami only instructed vijay and not vrajanatha.
=There are differences but so what?=
exactly, there are differences. and because there are differences each sadhaka should be instructed accordingly.
and only one guru in madhurya rasa can instruct on every detail taking into account the different sadhakas.
guru goswami not explained to vrajanatha, but only for vijaya about madhurya rasa.
well, guru goswami explained something about madhurya to vrajanatha. a brief summary.
=there are no confidential topics whatsoever about which these priya narma sakhas do not know.=
Yes, they know everything that happens. But this is very different. It simply means that priya narma sakhas know of any confidential pastimes of Krsna and not tell anyone.
A priya narma sakha has a friend (krsna) who has several girlfriends. They (priya narma) know all of this and even make arrangements for Him to meet with His girlfriends. And they are very happy (maha bhava) that He is enjoying with His girlfriends.
But the feeling that His girlfriends have for Him is exclusive of them. Only they can feel. Only they (sakhis and manjaris) are His girlfriends.
So, because of that, topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
Well, one thing I know. according to Bhaktivinoda Thakura topics about intimate esoteric matters of madhurya rasa are restricted for priya narma sakhas.
=there are no confidential topics whatsoever about which these priya narma sakhas do not know.=
Yes, they know everything that happens. But this is very different. It simply means that priya narma sakhas know of any confidential pastimes of Krsna and not tell anyone.
There is no contradiction here.
Adishesa Das Adikhari = Since I was in India living in Vrindavana when Srila Prabhupada was about to depart i heared that Srila Prabhupada was a cowhwerd boy in Krishna Lila, and his preference for Sri Sri Krishna Balarama as the central dieity at his Vrindavana temple is the best sign to conclude that, and that is a very trascendental fact revealed by Srila Prabhupada himself. He is for sure a very close assistant of the sakhis,that require the sakhas services all the time.
But in Vrindavan any sakha can become a gopi if they wish to, if Lord Shiva is Gopishvara Mahadeva, Why we should be wonder about?, we shouldnt look for mistakes in Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj visions, that would be our own mistake as a condition souls.
Adishesa Das Adikhari = Since I was in India living in Vrindavana when Srila Prabhupada was about to depart i heared that Srila Prabhupada was a cowhwerd boy in Krishna Lila, and his preference for Sri Sri Krishna Balarama as the central dieity at his Vrindavana temple is the best sign to conclude that, and that is a very trascendental fact revealed by Srila Prabhupada himself. He is for sure a very close assistant of the sakhis,that require the sakhas services all the time.
But in Vrindavan any sakha can become a gopi if they wish to, if Lord Shiva is Gopishvara Mahadeva, Why we should be wonder about?, we shouldnt look for mistakes in Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaj visions, that would be our own mistake as a condition souls.
