CONVERSATION WITH A SEMINAL BRAHMANA
Following is a conversation with a seminal Brahmana:
Seminal Brahmana
Preaching tactic. SP went against sastras to show his mercy to his disciples and also to fight caste brahmanas.
Hare Krsna Mahamantra can be given to anybody but not sacred thread.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Then if it was a preaching tactic, we should stop this now? But Prabhupada left instructions to continue to give sacred thread to Sudras !!!
Seminal Brahmana
Can you tell me why Srila Prabhupada wants to make statements contradictory to sastras and all other acaryas ?
Even original books printed before 1983's editorial changes are not trustworthy. Why? Because, till the time the original Dictaphone cassettes of SP's recordings are not made openly accessible by Bhaktivedanta Archives, we cannot trust anything. Even during SP's mortal presence, BBT editors used to make mistakes. The only way to ascertain whether SP's certain writings are authentic or not is to match them against the writings of classical Gaudiya acaryas.
It means this practice now must be stopped. (To give sacred thread to Sudras).
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Apparently we have to go to the Supreme in this very life
Suppose you get another human life. Is it guaranteed? You may fall down again. So my Guru Maharaja used to say that "Finish all business in this life."
Lecture on SB 1.16.24 -- Hawaii, January 20, 1974
Serious. My Guru Maharaja used to say like that, that "Finish this business in this life. Don't delay for the next life." He was telling also that "Don't give me trouble again to come here to deliver you."
Lecture on SB 6.3.18 -- Gorakhpur, February 11, 1971
My Guru Maharaja used to say that "Why should you wait for another life? Finish Krsna consciousness business in this life." In this life. Why you should set aside the business for another life?
Lecture on SB 7.6.5 -- Vrndavana, December 7, 1975
Bhaktisiddhanta also used preaching tactic?
Gaudiya Matha also gives Brahma Gayatri for Sudras?
Seminal Brahmana
Yes it started from SBSST. Gaudiya mutts are also deviated like this.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
If we do not give anymore Brahma Gayatri for Sudras, what would change?
They would continue to receive Gopala Mantra and Kama Gayatri. And especially the Maha Mantra. So why all this?
Seminal Brahmana
When a particular sampradaya starts going against the sastras, it is destroyed. This why now only Rupa Goswami's lineage is surviving.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
They would continue worshiping the Deities.
So why all this?
Seminal Brahmana
There is no problem with deity worship. All can do that. I am talking about sacred thread.
Mlecchas can also entitled for deity worship
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
I see. But I dont understand. In practice. On the daily basis what would change? Just do not have a cord of some paisas.
Seminal Brahmana
1. Scholars of other sampradaya will keep blaspheming Prabhupada
2. Sudras will develop false ego.
3. Mlecchas who don't deserve sacred thread will introduce it to themselves and their disciples.
4. In this way, the social varnasrama order will be disturbed and it will incur the anger of previous acaryas who are against it.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Well, if we say that a Sudra Vaishnava is vastly superior to a non-Vaishnava Brahmana and equal to a Vaishnava Brahmana, even if the Sudra does not use thread. He, the Sudra will be the false ego even without using the thread.
Seminal Brahmana
Sudra vaisnava is not equal to vaisnava brahmana. Refer to the following quotes from Hari Bhakti Vilasa.
In Shri Narada-pancaratra the Supreme Personality of Godhead explains to Shri Narada:
"O best of brahmanas, a spiritual master should be an exalted brahmana who knows everything at all times and who is merciful to everyone. In the absence of such a highly qualified person a spiritual master may be a kshatriya who is peaceful at heart, devoted to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, pure in heart, all-knowing, learned in the scriptures, devoted to pious deeds, and endowed with three perfections. (HBV 1.47-48)
"Such a kshatriya spiritual master should be merciful to the kshatriyas, vaishyas, and shudras. In the absence of such a kshatriya spiritual master one should accept a vaishya spiritual master who is always merciful to the vaishyas and shudras. In the absence of such a vaishya spiritual master a shudra may accept a shudra as a spiritual master." (HBV 1.49-50)
Furthermore:
If a famous brahmana spiritual-master is present in one's own district, a person who desires auspiciousness will not travel somewhere else to accept initiation from someone other than him. (HBV 1.51)
A person who accepts a spiritual master from a lower caste meets destruction in this life and the next. Therefore one should follow this instruction of the scriptures. A kshatriya, vaishya, or shudra should not give initiation to a person of a higher caste. (HBV 1.52)
In the Padma Purana it is said:
"A brahmana who is a great devotee of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual master of all human beings. Everyone should worship him as if he were Lord Krishna Himself. (HBV 1.53)
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
But if the Sudra Vaisnava is a Paramahamsa? Or a Sadhana Siddha?
Is superior than a Vaisnava Brahmana who is not Paramahamsa or Sadhana Siddha?
Seminal Brahmana
Yes if sudra vaisnava is siddha then he is superior to brahmana vaisnava who is not siddha.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Ahhhh !!! Very Good.
Seminal Brahmana
Also, even if both are siddha, the superiority of brahmana vaisnava is accepted only when it comes to the qualification as diksa guru. Otherwise, once siddha, sudra and brahmana vaisnava are equal on spiritual level.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
"Mlecchas who don't deserve sacred thread"
You will have to agree with me that many Brahmanas of birth did not deserve to wear the sacred thread as well.
Seminal Brahmana
how they did not deserve sacred thread? They deserve it that is why they got birth in brahmana family.
Please read the story of Matanga I sent you to know how its possible.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Yah. They deserve. But fell from its position.
Seminal Brahmana
One more point. If sudra vaisnava is possessing manjari bhava and brahmana vaisnava is in vatsalya bhava, spiritually sudra vaisnava will be superior.
They may or may not fall, they deserve it. The top 3 varnas deserve sacred thread as told by Gopala Bhatta Goswami in Sat-kriya-sara-dipika
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Yes they deserve but are Brahma-bandhu means a person who is born of a brahmana father but whose activities are not up to the standard of the brahmanas.
Seminal Brahmana
Yes they are brahma bandhus. But they can regain their position. Similar is with patita savitrikas.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Sudras Vaisnavas Paramahamsas cannot be Diksa Guru?
In the history of Gaudiya Vaishnavism Sudras gave diksa or not?
Seminal Brahmana
They can be diksa guru. but they cannot initiate the disciples belonging to higher varnas if brahmana vaisnava is available.
Yes in the history of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism there are such examples.
I am taking initiation from Gopala Krsna Maharaj who is a ksatriya.
But I am a brahmana.
But its not wrong because I have no brahmana guru available.
The distinction such as brahmana and sudra vaisnava is only external and limited to social customs and actions. If we internally dont accept them as equal, we fall from bhakti.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
I'm not sure. But I think Sudras Vaishnavas initiated Brahmanas by birth.
In history of Gaudiya Vaisnavism
Seminal Brahmana
Yes I did not deny that.
Narottama Dasa Thakura
There is a statement in the "Prema-Vivarta" of Srila Jagadananda Pandit ( an associate of Mahaprabhu Caitanya) that regarding making a paramarthika-guru, varna should not be given prime importance. Suppose if there is a highly qualified guru in some lower varna and a similar spiritual highness is not found within another guru of higher varna, then the guru from lower caste can also be accepted. Also, there are many factors like whether would-be guru is affectionately disposed towards disciple or not. But again such statements as found in Prema-Vivarta only refer to the gurus coming from three varnas and not to mleechas and antyajas. In Gaudiya line, we have history of Brahmins taking diksa from Kayasthas (brahma-ksatriya clan).
Well I am not sure if sudra guru initiated brahmana. i need to check that.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
I think so. But not sure.
Seminal Brahmana
Because the distance between sudra and brahmana is actually huge. You will have to read the story of Matanga that I sent you. it is from Mahabharata.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Yes, Narottama Dasa Thakura was Sudra isn't?
Seminal Brahmana
Yes but I have not come across if he initiated a brahmana
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
Actually, he initiated. When Shri Ganga Narayana Chakravarti, a renowned brahmana, took initiation from Shri Narottama Dasa Thakura the smarta brahmanas became outraged
Seminal Brahmana
Good, then its possible but again as an exception. Because it goes against Hari Bhakti Vilasa, instructions of Gopala Bhatta Goswami and Sanatana Goswami.
A kshatriya, vaishya, or shudra should not give initiation to a person of a higher caste. (HBV 1.52)
Also, we cannot take historical examples to break the direct rules given in bhakti sastras. Why? Because Jiva Goswami says in his Sarva Samvadini tika (Anuccheda 9) that sabda pramana is paid more importance than aitihya (history).
You can contact me if you have more questions. But post this only on your wall. That would be better. Because all the people dont agree with previous acaryas.
Prahladesh Dasa Adhikari
If I have more questions I can contact you?
Also I would like to make this conversation public. Can it be?
Seminal Brahmana
Ok.
IT IS NOT AN EXCEPTION. Many, many cases.
"In ancient times there was only one varna called hamsa. Later on, according to qualities and work, the four varnas were created-there were not four varnas in the beginning. Of course, there is a gulf of difference between the four varnas and their respective qualifications.
Intelligent people should carefully consider this.
Apart from the four varnas created by the Lord, the system of a son's purely inheriting the varna of his father has also been accepted. This is called seminal varna. But every reader of the scriptures knows that the seminal process is not the only way of ascertaining one's varna.
He certainly knows that among the one hundred sons of Rishabhadeva, eighty-one of them became brahmanas, nine of them became kshatriyas, and nine became Vaishnavas. Apart from brahmana sons such as Shaunaka, Gritsamada also had kshatriya, vaishya and shudra sons. The sons of the kshatriya Duritakshaya-Trayyaruni, Kavi, and Pushkararuni-became brahmanas. In the dynasty of King Ajamidha, the brahmana Priyamedha was born. There are hundreds of such examples in the scriptures.
Though Shathakopa Dasa, the spiritual master of Shri Shri Ramanujacarya Prabhu, was born in the family of a shudra, he was a brahmana. And in the Gaudiya Vaishnava society, in the families of Shrila Rasikananda Prabhu, Shrila Raghunandana, Shri Hari Hoda, and others, performance of the twice-born samskara is still current. This spiritual position of brahmanas, attained through spiritual initiation, has been accepted by intelligent people from time immemorial. There is no need to be surprised by seeing or hearing this." (Weekly Gaudiya, Vol.1, Part 28)
"Vaishnava acaryas who were born in seminal brahmana families refuted the atheistic philosophy of considering Vaishnavas as belonging to particular castes.
If the opinion of the shastras were that Vaishnavas born in families lower than so-called brahmanas are inferior to the brahmanas, and the word viprasamya meant that the Vaishnavas are inferior to the brahmanas, then why doesn't the behavior of the Vaishnava acaryas support this?
Did Acarya Shrila Narottama Thakura commit a great offence by accepting as disciples Shripada Ganganarayana Cakravarti and Shripada Ramakrishna Bhattacarya, who were born in seminal brahmana families?
From this example of the acarya, it is proved that the word viprasamya indicates that what to speak of a Vaishnava's being inferior or equal to a brahmana, rather he is qualified to become the spiritual master of brahmanas. Otherwise why did Shrila Narahari Cakravarti Thakura, the author of Bhakti-ratnakara and a topmost Vaishnava born in a brahmana family, write as follows:
shri-thakura narottama patita-pavana
tanra shishya cakravarti ganganarayana
ganganarayana vidyavanta atishaya
khandiya `pashanda-mata' bhakti prakashaya
“Shrila Narottama dasa Thakura was a deliverer of the fallen souls. His disciple was Ganganarayana Cakravarti. Ganganarayana was learned scholar. He refuted atheistic philosophy and preached devotional service.” By using the word pashanda-mata, or atheistic philosophy, is it not being indicated that the envious smartas are considering Shrila Narottama Thakura as belonging to a particular caste?
That is why Shri Narahari Cakravarti Thakura has mentioned the philosophy of the smartas as “atheistic philosophy.” He has written in the Bhakti-ratnakara, Fifteenth Wave:
jaya jaya shri-ganganarayana cakravarti ati dhira gambhira
“All glories to Shri Ganganarayana Cakravarti, who is very sober and grave.”
shrila narottama-carana-saroruha-bhajana-parayana bhuvana-ujora
“By worshiping the lotus feet of Shrila Narottama dasa Thakura, I will cross over material existence.” (Weekly Gaudiya, Vol. 4, Part 16)
The various scriptural references describing the qualifications of brahmanas and showing respect for brahmanas refer to both seminal brahmanas and those who have become brahmanas by initiation. These references from scriptures on karma, jnana, and bhakti do not refer only to seminal brahmanas. In no case are brahmanas by initiation disregarded.
Although in the opinion of some scriptures there is no possibility of becoming an initiated brahmana unless one is a seminal brahmana, this restriction was imposed only because of narrow-minded social traditions.
When this narrow-mindedness is given up by deep research and higher education, then the entire world will be illuminated by the glories of the eternal Aryan culture.
Then we will understand how futile is the attempt of frogs to fill the universe with the sound of their croaking." (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura - Brahmana and Vaisnava)
"It is also interesting to note that according to the memoirs of Sri Paramananda Vidyaratna Prabhu in Sarasvati Jayasri, (the first official biography of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura written during his lifetime), Srila Sarasvati Thakura visited the sripata of Srila Narahari Sarakara Thakura in 1912 and learned that upanayana and other samskaras were being performed since ancient times for vaidyas (ayurvedic doctors).
Vaidyas were considered as sudras yet the descendents of Srila Narahari still initiated them with gayatri etc. This information was given to Srila Sarasvati Thakura by the mahanta of Sri Khanda, Sriyukta Radhikananda Mahasaya. It is also noteworthy that Srila Narahari Sarakara Thakura himself was not a brahmana, yet he gave initiation to Srila Locana Dasa Thakura who was born in a brahmana family.
In more recent times, many Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas who were not born in brahmana families have accepted the role of guru. These personalities include Srila Gadadhara Dasa Thakura, Sri Mukunda Dasa, Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura, Srila Syamananda Gosvami, Srila Rasikananda Prabhu, Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana, Uddharana Datta Thakura, Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Gaura-kisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura.
Amongst the many disciples of Srila Sarasvati Thakura who were not born in brahmana families, but who acted as acaryas are such personalities as Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada, Srila Bhakti Pradipa Tirtha Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Vilasa Tirtha Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Kevala Audulomi Maharaja, Srila Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Kumuda Santa Maharaja.
Due to the fact that Srila Siddhanta Sarasvati gave mantra-diksa, especially to those born in brahmana families, many smarta-brahmanas and Vaisnava brahmana gurus in Bengal became outraged to the point that they hired gundas to physically attack members of the Gaudiya Matha on several occasions and even made attempts to assassinate Srila Sarasvati Thakura.
If we are to accept the author's opinion in 'guru nirnaya dipika', then we must also accept that Srila Narottama Dasa Thakura, Srila Syamananda Gosvami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Sarasvati Thakura were ineligible to initiate since they all came from a so-called sudra class." (Gosai)
Necessity of the sacred thread ceremony
after receiving pancaratrika initiation.
According to the process of Vaishnava literatures in pursuance of the Vedas, an impure person can become pure only by spiritual initiation; there cannot be any other arrangement for purification.
It does not matter in which family one is born, either in a so-called brahmana family or a lower family, if he wants to be purified in this age of Kali then he should earn his qualification to be twice-born by first being initiated according to the rules and regulations of the Vedic Pancaratras and thereafter accept the signs of a twice-born.
It is stated in the scriptures:
yatha kancanatam yati kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah
tatha diksha-vidhanena dvijatvam jayate nrinam
“As bell metal is turned to gold when mixed with mercury in an alchemical process, so one who is properly trained and initiated by a bona fide spiritual master immediately becomes a brahmana.”
Every human being must take Vaishnava initiation according to the proper Vedic Pancaratra process, then he becomes a qualified twice-born, who must then accept the appropriate signs such as the sacred thread.
Those who consider paramahamsas, who are eternally pure and beyond the principles of varnashrama, as belonging to a particular caste have a hellish mentality.
The paramahamsas, who are actually eternally perfect pure souls, are beyond the principles of varnashrama.
They need not again purify themselves. Therefore they may also not accept the sacred thread. This does not mean, however, that they are in any way less than a thrice-born.
They are the spiritual masters of the brahmanas, and the brahmanas are their servants.
