As regards the jiva falling from susupti, that is the statement of Srila Prabhupada in a letter to Jagadish dasa, Los Angeles, April 25, 1970, when questioned on this very subject:
"Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.
Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions."
Your ever well-wisher,
A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
So in answering the first question, Srila Prabhupada states "those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down." We can conclude that the residents of Goloka Vrndavana are "firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down."
However, those emanated by Sri Krsna in the form of Sri Maha Visnu within the Causal Ocean are "resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs."
The awakening from susputi and subsequent choice of spiritual or material life is further elucidated in the Brhad-aranyaka Upanishad.
Brhad-aranyaka Upanishad, 2.2.20:
"Just as innumerable sparks cascade out of a flame, similarly, from Sri Krsna, who is the Atma, the Universal Soul, the jivas emanate who are His separated parts and parcels."
This "Atma, the Universal Soul" is Sri Krsna here in the form of Sri Maha Visnu emanating the tatastha-sakti jivas at the margin of matter and spirit, the Casual Ocean.
Brhad-aranyaka Upanishad, 4.3.9:
"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm. He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."
This dream-like third state is the condition of susupti after emanation from Sri Maha Visnu, as correspondingly explained by Srila Prabhupada in the letter quoted above.
Further, Brhad-aranyaka Upanishad, 4.3.18:
"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."
The verse directly above describes the jiva's choice as he awakens from susupti within the Causal Ocean. All this has been summarized in his answer to Jagadish dasa in the letter quoted above.
As Srila Prabhupada in the letter says: "those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down."
We can conclude that the "those" Srila Prabhupada refers include the prema-bhava-jivas residing in the highest abode of Goloka Vrindavana.
Therefore, "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."
The words of Srila Prabhupada are quite unequivocal. No one falls from the Vaikuntha Planets, (obviously Goloka included). However they fall from the awakening state of susupti after emanation from Sri Krsna in the form of Sri Maha Visnu in the borderline of matter and spirit, the Causal Ocean. This is the Upanisad statement above.
This is eternal Vedic Siddhanta. Any contrary ideas, rely on misinterpretation and misquotation.
(Paramahamsa Prahladesh)
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-10/editorials5936.htm
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/04-10/editorials6027.htm
OK. MAHA MAYA ESTA LA FORA. MAS MESMO ASSIM É UM ABSURDO. PORQUE ALI A JIVA ESTA A EXPERIMENTAR UM PRAZER QUE SE RENOVA A CADA INSTANTE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The tastatha-sakti jiva comes from Karanodakasayee Visnu, and then comes out through His divine light-filled glance. From there, from that light, Krsna has given the anadi-baddha jivas the intelligence and freedom to consider, "What should I do?" There is a very fine imaginary line between paraloka, the transcendental world, and this loka, the material world. Krsna gave the jiva some freedom, saying, "From here you can see this world of maya, and from here you can see towards the spiritual world. It then depends on you what you choose. I will give a minute of time only. You should at once decide." When certain jivas somehow looked towards this world, they were attracted and decided that they should relish it. As for those who looked from tatastha-sakti and were attracted to Krsna, Yogamaya at once gave them the power to come and serve Krsna for eternity.
Como Srimati Radharani - que não possui a liberdade inerente de dar as costas a Krsna, como têm as jivas - pode, ainda assim, ser considerada uma Pessoa que experimenta o amor a Krsna? Como o Maharaja afirma, se as jivas não fossem possuidoras desse livre-arbítrio, nosso amor forçado não seria considerado, de forma alguma, amor; contudo, quando falando de Radharani, que, por natureza, não tem essa liberdade, Sua experiência continua sendo chamada de amor. O senhor poderia, por favor, explicar essa aparente contradição?
"Há três categorias principais de energia do Senhor Supremo: a potência interna, a potência externa e a potência marginal (antaranga, bahiranga e tatastha sakti). As jivas são, por constituição, a potência marginal do Senhor; como o nome indica, elas são marginais, isso no sentido de que elas podem se dirigir para ambas as direções, isto é, podem se refugiar na potência interna ou na potência externa. Srimati Radharani e outros eternos associados pessoais do Senhor, no entanto, pertencem à categoria de potência interna. O fato não é que eles não têm livre-arbítrio, mas, sendo “não-marginais”, eles SEMPRE escolhem servir Krsna, e nunca se sujeitam à energia externa. Isto acontece em virtude da diferença constitucional entre os dois tipos de energias.
http://www.bvml.org/SBBBM/qa.html
The jiva (soul) is eternally tatastha-sakti, up till the point that he becomes liberated, from that point he becomes svarup-sakti.
Svarup-siddhi is not Tatastha anymore. The jiva becomes from that point nitya-siddha, eternally liberated fully under the protection and guidance of the Supreme Lord without the tendency to become attracted by the illusionary energy of the Lord.
Vaishnava Siddhanta Mala - Bhaktivinod Thakur
QUESTION: Where do the nitya-baddha, baddha-mukta and nitya-mukta souls reside?
ANSWER: The nitya-baddha and baddha-mukta souls reside in the material world. The nitya-mukta souls reside in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha (the place of no anxiety).
Siva says:
“Tathastha does not refer to a place, it does not possess a locatice meaning in the sense of being in a particular spot. Tatastha has an ontological meaning. The jiva is a sakti of the Lord, it exists as neither Cit Sakti nor as Maya Sakti, we exist in between these two categories of saktis, therefore we are called Tatastha. The place where water, as in a river an ocean or lake, where it meets the land, that is called tata. The Cit Sakti is represented by the water and the Maya Sakti us represented by the land. Since we are neither the Maya Sakti nor the Cit Sakti, neither the water or the land, we are called tatastha, or the inbetween the water and the land. The tide can cause us to be submerged in water or the tide can retreat and we can become left on the land. The jiva can be influenced and come under the dominion of the Cit Sakti or of the Maya Sakti. Either was the constitutional position of the jiva is tatastha sakti, the marginal potency, on the margin or border between 2 other potencies.”
end quote:
I would have to disagree with that analysis.
Tatastha-shakti is called tatastha-shakti because it was begotten in the Viraja as Maha-Vishnu lies there in that causal ocean in his yoga-nidra.
In Brahma-Samhita we find the purport:
Śrī Brahma-saḿhitā 5.44 purport,
“When jīvas begotten of the marginal potency (taṭasthā śakti) forget the service of Kṛṣṇa they are confined in the mundane prison house, the citadel of Durgā.”
The marginal potency of Krishna is manifested in the marginal plane of the Viraja.
That is why it is called marginal potency, because it is employed in the marginal realm of the Viraja.
This Viraja is described as having a marginal nature in shastra.
“Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 21.50
pradhāna-parama-vyomnor
antare virajā nadī
vedāńga-sveda-janitais
toyaiḥ prasrāvitā śubhā
SYNONYMS
pradhāna-parama-vyomnoḥ antare — between the material world and the spiritual world; virajā nadī — is a river known as Virajā; veda-ańga — of the transcendental body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; sveda-janitaiḥ — produced from the perspiration; toyaiḥ — with water; prasrāvitā — flowing; śubhā — all-auspicious.
TRANSLATION
“‘Between the spiritual and the material world is a body of water known as the river Virajā. This water is generated from the bodily perspiration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Vedāńga. Thus the river flows.”
This description exactly corresponds that what is said in this verse about the marignal nature of the jiva.
Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.108-109 purport,
“You belong to Kṛṣṇa’s marginal potency. There are two worlds — the spiritual world and the material world — and you are situated between the material and spiritual potencies. You have a relationship with both the material and the spiritual world; therefore you are called the marginal potency.”
So, it is quite obvious that tatastha-shakti refers to the jivas that are manifested by Maha-Vishnu from within the Viraja.
That is the whole idea of tatastha-shakti.
The jivas that inhabit this material energy were manifested in the Viraja and it was from there where they made their first mistake in judgement to turn to maya and away from the Lord.
Since the Viraja is spiritual and the jivas being manifested there are potentially pure, it is a falldown for the jiva to chose maya over the Lord from that marginal position.
To say that the tatastha-shakti has nothing to do with a place or a realm of existence is just wrong.
I know, Shiva says that even the liberated devotees of Goloka are also marginal potency.
I don’t accept that in the way some others do.
Maybe they WERE tatastha-shakti before they became loving servants of Krishna and for that reason they can also be referred to as marginal potency.
When a jiva attains the infallible position of liberation in devotional service, I just don’t see how and why they can be lumped-in with all the conditioned jivas that are begotten by the marginal potency for the purpose of inhabiting the material worlds.
Something about that just doesn’t set right with me.
Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.117 purport,
“The living entity is called the marginal energy because by nature he is spiritual but by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy. Thus he has the power to live either in the material energy or in the spiritual energy, and for this reason he is called marginal energy. Being in the marginal position, he is sometimes attracted by the external, illusory energy, and this is the beginning of his material life.”
So, it is quite obvious that “marginal” means that the living entity is situated in the material energy due to forgetfulness of Krishna.
The liberated devotees are neither situated in the material energy or forgetful of Krishna.
As such, they are not “marginal” jivas caught in the web of illusion.
Read the purport.
The living entity is called marginal because “by forgetfulness he is situated in the material energy”.
The liberated pure devotees do not fit this description.
Therefore, they cannot be classified along with the forgetful marginal jivas caught in the illusory energy.
The liberated pure devotees are internal energy, not marginal energy.
Marginal means a spirit soul is caught up in illusion.
It means he is spiritual but caught up in the material energy.
That is what marginal means.
Parishads of Krishna with bodies made of sandhini and hladini shakti are not marginal jivas.
There has to be a difference between liberated jivas in pure devotional service and conditioned jivas in illusion.
The difference is that the conditioned jivas are marginal potency and the liberated jivas are internal spiritual potency.
Shastra makes it clear that the associates of Krishna are manifested by hladini and sandhini shaktis.
Krishna’s intimate associates and devotees are NEVER marginal jivas.
They are internal devotees.
Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
Akruranatha says:
“Srila Prabhupada has said over and over again that jivas remain “marginal” and “fragmental” even in the liberated condition.”
Fragmental yes.
Marginal?
Nowhere have I seen Srila Prabhupada say this.
Please don’t take “fragmentary” and try to equate that with “marginal”.
They are not synonymous.
I don’t think you can produce one verifiable reference where Srila Prabhupada says that liberated souls remain “marginal” after liberation.
You are trying to win the debate by making false comparisons between “fragmental” and “marginal”.
If you have to resort to such tactics to win the debate, then that just shows that you aren’t playing fair and are more interested in winning a debate than in understanding siddhanta.
Krishna says that by a fragment of himself he creates and maintains the whole material creation.
So, a fragment of Krishna can be unlimitedly powerful, unlike the marginal conditioned jivas who make their stand in the land of maya.
If you think that a fragment of Krishna is the same as a conditioned jiva, then you have no concept of the potential power of a fragment of Krishna.
Comment posted by Japa Jim on October 16th, 2007
Chapter 31: The Supreme Perfection
Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya
Quote:
When spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance, it is called marginal energy.
end quote
Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 7.3.34
anantāvyakta-rūpeṇa
yenedam akhilaḿ tatam
cid-acic-chakti-yuktāya
tasmai bhagavate namaḥ
SYNONYMS
ananta-avyakta-rūpeṇa — by the unlimited, unmanifested form; yena — by which; idam — this; akhilam — total aggregate; tatam — expanded; cit — with spiritual; acit — and material; śakti — potency; yuktāya — unto he who is endowed; tasmai — unto him; bhagavate — unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; namaḥ — I offer my respectful obeisances.
TRANSLATION
Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the Supreme, who in his unlimited, unmanifested form has expanded the cosmic manifestation, the form of the totality of the universe. He possesses external and internal energies and the mixed energy called the marginal potency, which consists of all the living entities.
end quote.
So, it appears from these two references that marginal energy is when spiritual energy is overwhelmed by ignorance and becomes a mixture of internal and external energy.
This condition does not apply to the liberated devotees of Vaikuntha/Goloka, so it seems that we cannot really apply the “marginal” designation to them.
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur writes in “Brahmana and Vaisnava” , Harijana-khanda:
“”Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. EVEN THOUGH HE IS NOT ENGAGED IN SERVING THE SUPREME LORD, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a LACK OF KNOWLEDGE OF SELF REALIZATION, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him.”
When the jiva attains vastu-siddhi and is further transferred into aprakata-lila, the essential quality of being tatastha, in other words, being between the two energies, is no longer there, and the jiva, although originated from tatastha, can no longer be considered ontologically tatastha, since it has now become permanently situated in and obtained the qualities of svarupa-sakti. Of course it is still considered tatastha on account of its origin, though no longer possessing the quality of tatastha.
